Is Steve Guttenberg BS’ing Audiophiles About Their Systems?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Cyclone Ranger, Mar 24, 2023.

  1. Elijah1

    Elijah1 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    United States
    Rudy Van Gelder made sure a lot of jazz wouldn’t sound like a live performance. My main goal is to hear music the way the recording engineer, and mastering engineer intended.
     
    patient_ot, BrentB and nosliw like this.
  2. mattsob1

    mattsob1 I enjoy distortion

    Location:
    Grand Rapids MI
    The piano is the most difficult of popular instruments to recreate the sound of. If you want to build great systems, get to know piano music and notes. A xylophone is also very difficult to accurately reproduce the sound of. Stand-up bass is also a tough one to accurately reproduce. Kind of a fun video to listen to, and it's funny, on my computer I would think this was a piano, I can't even tell it's a xylophone.

     
    BrentB and Sneaky Pete like this.
  3. Spooky

    Spooky Forum Resident

    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    Funny enough the speakers I currently own (Klipsch Forte IV) were purchased partly for their ability to make music sound more “live”. And for lots of recordings they do a great job at that (mainly jazz and acoustic music).

    But I don’t think that should be the end goal for audiophiles in general.
     
  4. bever70

    bever70 Let No-one Live Rent Free in Your Head!

    Location:
    Belgium
    Audiophiles exist to recreate music.
     
  5. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    The keyword here is SOME. By far the majority of musicians are not recording engineers.

    Most musicians I have known throughout my lifetime have about zero knowledge of electronics or even basic electricity.

    That is perfectly fine...
     
    The Pinhead and Dave112 like this.
  6. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    How would you define the main goal of audiophiles in general? Just Curious...
     
    The Pinhead and Spooky like this.
  7. Spooky

    Spooky Forum Resident

    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    To listen for and research as many different audio cues and elements that one finds satisfying/gratifying and then search out the stereo components that can best provide those for them within their respective budget.
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  8. Chemically altered

    Chemically altered Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ukraine in Spirit
    I think that's different for all audiophiles. Aside from clarity, sound stage, detail, etc. etc, I'm looking for a natural sound in acoustic instruments like guitars, mandolins, etc. as well as realistic or natural sounding vocals. I could care less if a synthesizer or electric piano sounds harsh or unmusical to me as I'm not that interested. I'm told that they sound great, but again, it's not a priority for me.
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  9. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I think that a system that can fo an excellent job of reproducing live sound can realistically reproduce vocals and acoustical instruments.

    My personal objective is to be able to do everything. Though this is an optimistic objective!

    I do think I can mostly achieve this. A couple of areas that I fall short is reproducing strings, like violins.

    I also don't feel I do a good job at reproducing a real orchestra. But then, I have yet to hear any system that has me believing that I am actually listening to a live orchestra.

    When it comes to synthetic music, it becomes very subjective. Sine the actual sound doesn't really "exist" there are two ways it may be portrayed.

    One is by the individual amplifier / speaker combination that the performer is using for playback.

    The other is when the musical signal is directly routed to a recording device.

    Either way, we are left to guess as to how synthised music is actually supposed to sound like.

    Some synth music is harsh by design. But much of it definitely is not. However a good system is required to really reproduce synth music because it goes beyond the realm of traditional acoustic instruments.

    The same can really be said for all electric instruments.
     
    Chemically altered and Spooky like this.
  10. Spooky

    Spooky Forum Resident

    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    But this has to assume that the source material is representing the violin (or whatever instrument) accurately. Otherwise your chasing a ghost.
     
    Big Blue likes this.
  11. Spooky

    Spooky Forum Resident

    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    This is a good standard I think but…

    That would require either as neutral of a system as possible or to use the same equipment they used when mixing and mastering, no?
     
  12. elvisizer

    elvisizer Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Jose
    The vast majority of the recorded music I listen has nothing to do with live music. Recorded != live so why even worry
     
    The Pinhead, patient_ot and BrentB like this.
  13. elvisizer

    elvisizer Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Jose
    Heh this is why you’d see Yamaha ns-10’s next to most studios regular monitors, same exact concept
     
    mattsob1 likes this.
  14. Chemically altered

    Chemically altered Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ukraine in Spirit
    While symphonic orchestral instruments are not my main priority, violin, viola and cello are. You can say that string quartet or quintet reproduction does interests me, and generally sounds good, depending on the source.
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  15. Chris Schoen

    Chris Schoen Rock 'n Roll !!!

    Location:
    Maryland, U.S.A.
    Yep, my Heresy's sound "boxy" sometimes, in a good way, and produce a great "live" sound (imo).
    Cranking live albums really are what these speakers do well. Definitely not "audiophile", but I love them...
     
  16. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    It is these type of strings where my Altec's fail to preform their best. Being that they are metal HF based horns, this hardly comes as a surprise!

    However... I have Polk LSiM707's as my stereo fron mains and Boston Acoustics M-350's in the rear. Both of these work well with violins.

    It is for these reasons that I had three separate speaker/amp systems in the room. By adjusting the volume level on each system individually, I could "tune" the overall voicing of the system.
     
    The Pinhead likes this.
  17. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    My experience, as a musician and a person who has been friends with quite a few musicians, is that they are pretty often concerned with their tone, or the timbre of their instrument. Woodwind musicians will spend a lot more money, if they can afford it, for a horn that sounds better than less expensive alternatives. Same for acoustic string musicians. Electric guitar players will spend all kinds of money on gear to get their amplified tone sounding the way they want it. Is this not basically the same thing as caring about sound quality?
     
    rcsrich, morinix, Peter K and 2 others like this.
  18. Dave112

    Dave112 Forum Resident

    Location:
    South Carolina
    Good point.
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  19. Daedalus

    Daedalus I haven't heard it all.....

    I don’t know if SG is BS-ing, but his comments caused my mind to wander to thoughts of the best audiophile sound system I ever heard( in concert)- the Grateful Dead’s “Wall of Sound”. Sublime.
     
    Dave112 likes this.
  20. The way I understand things regarding that rig; it’s basically a John Curl engineered system.
     
    bever70 and Daedalus like this.
  21. daglesj

    daglesj Forum Resident

    Location:
    Norfolk, UK
    It just boils down to what you like and are happy with.

    Some people like Pepsi, I prefer cheap Scotch.
     
    Dave112 and SandAndGlass like this.
  22. Frank Bisby

    Frank Bisby Forum Resident

    The premise you can’t recreate live music is problematic in a few ways.

    The first being there is an incredible variance in live sound and not all of it is good. I’ve been to many concerts where I thought my home stereo sounded much better. Don’t get me wrong, if you get in a good spot at a rolling stone concert, you’re not going to beat that sitting in your living room but live sound doesn’t mean good or accurate unilaterally. There are quite a few bands that release official soundboard recordings of their concerts. I think the Allman Brothers sold Cdr’s of their shows at the merch table in 2006 or before. Get a very good playback system and you can beat what you heard live in many cases. Every good concert has a lot of bad seats and not every PA sounds good.

    For the vast majority of live music you are listening to electronics. It’s a big stack of speakers that are powered by amplifiers. There is nothing magical happening that can’t be recreated. What you can’t do is get your listening room to sound like tenth row center at MSG, Red Rocks, the Hollywood Bowl or a good theatre/opera house. A soundboard recording of the current Springsteen tour on the upper level of any basketball arena is very beatable. Just listen to when he talks, you’re lucky to understand a word of what he’s saying in that basketball arena. The soundboard is clear as a bell.

    all sound is really just detail, tone and volume, you can break those things down further but that’s what it comes down to. You can certainly change the detail, tone and volume of what you are hearing based on the equipment you choose. Those changes can get you closer to live sound or further away from it.

    I’ve played a lot of guitar and done a lot of recording, you can get an accurate replay of the sound of your instrument. Now if you are standing two feet away from a Marshal stack and playing a PRS through a big board of pedals at loud volume, you can’t really get that done with a home stereo. But why would you? Ever try listening to a recording through a guitar amp? It’s terrible. Playing and listening are two very different things. You can’t get a playing experience from your stereo. It’s the difference between playing sports and watching it.

    and perhaps most importantly, no one is listening to live sound for the most part. A studio recording is a creation of many people and the equipment they use. In many ways it’s an illusion. I like it when people carry on about soundstage width and depth. “The bass is to the left, the guitar on the right and the drums are behind both of them, I can hear it.” And you can hear that but it’s not because that’s how it went down in the room. It’s an illusion.

    Steve listens to a lot of equipment and spends a lot time thinking about it. Do that long enough and you come up with some weird philosophical questions. The one he came up with is “why?”. “Sitting in my apartments is never like being at the village vanguard listening to live music.” Perhaps the point is to take some hi-fi budgets and go see live music. Rather than dumping another 30k into speakers, go to Paris for month and hang out in jazz clubs.

    Its good to ask yourself “what am I doing and why am I doing it?” If you come up with the answer of “I’m just fooling myself”, go ahead and take a break.
     
  23. rcsrich

    rcsrich Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia
    Kind of. My point is that when faced with recording, a musician will typically be focused on the sound of thier particular instrument/part vs on the overall quality of the mix (something that audiophiles tend to focus on). Of course, lots of exceptions and gray area here…for example, self-produced albums by multi-instrumentalists.
     
    Big Blue likes this.
  24. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.

    My limited experience with musicians has led me to believe that they focus more on the SQ of the instrument they play and less about the recording as a whole.
     
    Big Blue likes this.
  25. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    Indeed. With unamplified acoustic instruments is where I find the most difference. But I don't have a single recording like that. I can achieve better sound at home that at any gig, so there's that.
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine