Is this significant? SACD to output digitally via HDMI V1.2

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by soundboy, Sep 12, 2005.

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  1. soundboy

    soundboy Senior Member Thread Starter

    I came across this press release as I googled "SACD" in the news section. Denon has received permission from Sony/Philips for iLink digital output for SACD, and now HDMI V1.2 can also pass SACD digitally. Looks good on the hardware front.
     
  2. JonUrban

    JonUrban SHF Member #497

    Location:
    Connecticut
    I am currently Denon Linking SACD and it works great. That's good news about HDMI as well. That's how it should be.
     
  3. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    Great link, thanks.

    That is a pretty important announcment. Now that HDMI can be had on el cheapo $150 DVD players, consumers will have a simple, one wire digital connection for all of their sources. Hopefully HDMI 1.2 recievers will be cheap too.
     
  4. GoldenBoy

    GoldenBoy Purple People Eater

    Location:
    US
    That's fine, but I have yet to se an external DSD DAC, priced within reason, that can match the built in DAC's on my XA9000ES. I will continue to use the analogue outs for SACD just as I have done for every CD player I've ever owned. IMHO, external DAC's are overrated, especially if you go out and by a decent player to begin with. I can see and appreciate how this will make it much more simplified for consumers, most of whom don't even realise that Hi-Res content even exists or can't be output via their existing coaxial or optical digital outputs.
     
  5. Rachael Bee

    Rachael Bee Miembra muy loca

    I don't see how it's significant if it's not Sony & Philips anouncing a standardized digital connection...and presumably renewed suppourt.
     
  6. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    Well, you'd use the DACs in a receiver, like a Denon 5805 or 4806. Or one of the Sony ES models. I bet the Denons via IEEE1394 would give the XA9000ES a run for it's money vs. internal DACs.

    There are Sony DVD players with SACD that have HDMI. Give it a little time and I bet they'll come on board too.
     
  7. Rachael Bee

    Rachael Bee Miembra muy loca

    They've had 5 years to cull a sensible plan and ain't done it yet. Civilians can't cope with 6 analog cables. I hope you're right! They need to get it down to something way closer to plug and play...for civilians.
     
  8. GoldenBoy

    GoldenBoy Purple People Eater

    Location:
    US
    I disagree entirely about the Denons and, no, I wouldn't use a Sony ES receiver's DAC's either. I could right now if I wanted to, but they do not offer the 36 DAC's (18 per channel/stereo, 6 per channel surround) that the XA9000ES offers. I much prefer the sound of Sony over Denon in every way.
     
  9. GoldenBoy

    GoldenBoy Purple People Eater

    Location:
    US

    I agree.
     
  10. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    Just wanted to point out that it's a possibility. The Denon's use some of the best DACs on the market. Also, FWIW, I've come to the conclusion that the XA9000ES and XA777ES use the exact same DAC config. Yes, this is contrary to the early-version white paper that Sony put out for the XA9000ES. However, I owned both the XA777ES and XA9000ES and have taken them apart to check out the audio board/DACs. They appear identical. Me and Metralla had a thorough discussion about this about 16 months ago.

    Also, remember that the analog output stage is just as crucial (if not moreso) than the DACs. So, if the high-end Denon's had a superior analog output stage, it could be expected they could provide better sound.
     
  11. GoldenBoy

    GoldenBoy Purple People Eater

    Location:
    US
    What exactly are you saying here? That they use the same DAC's as the XA777ES? Or that they don't use as many as they claim? :confused:

    In any case, the XA777ES is a brilliant player. I see nothing wrong with the XA9000ES sharing the same DAC's.

    Maybe, maybe not. If the output coming from the DAC's is lackluster, then the analogue stage can't do much. Garbage in, garbage out. I don't see anythiong wrong with the analogue stage on the XA9000ES either. To me, it's is excellent.

    Personally, I haver never heard a Denon component and been completely enamoured of its sound. Maybe it's just me. Mind you, I actually own a Denon 2200 universal and am quite happy with its DVD/DVD-A playback, so I have no inherent bias against them.
     
  12. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    Correct! DAC/output stage appear identical on the XA777ES/XA9000ES. I wouldn't believe it either unless I had taken them both appart in my own home. Somewhere there is an archived thread I posted with pics, etc. I had a tough time telling their sound appart on stereo material, which furthur supports this finding.

    I know that garbage-in-garbage-out theory, but the DACs in those AVR5805/4806 are world class in every sense. I currently have a Denon 3910 that replaced my XA9000ES for 5.1 SACDs. I was able to A/B them (with my Sony TAP9000ES dual 5.1 pre-amp) and found their performance to be virtually identical on MCH SACD. Sure, the Sony was better on redbook, but the 3910 goes head to head with the XA9000ES on MCH while costing 1/2 the price and more features.
     
  13. GoldenBoy

    GoldenBoy Purple People Eater

    Location:
    US
    Forgive my ignorance once again, as I drag out this rather off topic tangent a bit further, but I still am not sure - is it that the DAC's are identical, that there aren't as many as claimed, or both?

    I guess this is all highly subjective, because I auditioned the Denon 5900, 2900, 2200 (which I own) and the 3910, and I absolutely cannot stand their SACD playback. It literally hurts my ears, I don't know why, but it does. For some reason, I really like their DVD-A playback but SACD, I stay away from at all costs. I've never had that expereience with any other component. :confused:
     
  14. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    From what I saw on my players, the DACs appeared to be the same, with the same number for each channel visible on each L/R audio board. BB1738's? I don't recall exactly.

    As far as the Denon's go, well, everyone's got their preferences. I don't really like redbook on my 3910, but 5.1 SACD is very listenable. I'd prefer the 3910 on 5.1 SACD to the XA777ES mainly because the older XA doesn't do distance compensation. The XA9000ES has a bit of roundness over the Denon that is enjoyable. Different strokes for different folks I suppose. It is relevant to point out that the Denon's use the Sony DSD converters, though.
     
  15. GoldenBoy

    GoldenBoy Purple People Eater

    Location:
    US
    I thought Denons used Burr Browns for PCM and DSD? has that changed, or am I just wrong?
    Maybe, in the case of the Denons, there is something going on in the analogue stage that AI am picking up on, but I swear, I can't listen for more than 10 minutes or so to SACD playback on Denon gear without my ears starting to hurt. I don't know why.

    If what you are saying about the XA9000ES is true, then Sony is a serious liar and should probably be facing a lawsuit and/or criminal charges. According to them, the XA9000ES contains 18 SA DAC chips with 2 DAC's on each. I can't believe they would lie so blatantly about something like that. Well, I can believe they would, but not that no one has yet to launch a class action. Whatever the case may be, it still sounds good to my ears. :)
     
  16. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    Right, the Burr Brown PCM1738 can do PCM and DSD natively. I always thought the XA model Sony's used the 1738's. See Stereophile review. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

    As far as the "36 DACs vs. 12" thing goes: Well, remember that the white paper for the XA9000ES came out long before the actual player did. Maybe Sony marketing wasn't talking so good to Sony engineering. Plus, since the differences between the two models are extremely minor, they needed something to motivate folks to upgrade (like me!! ;) ) I don't think Sony needs criminal charges filed, but more accurate descriptions would be better ;)
     
  17. GoldenBoy

    GoldenBoy Purple People Eater

    Location:
    US
    I recall reading that Stereophile review about a year or so ago, but I'll take a look at it again.
     
  18. JonUrban

    JonUrban SHF Member #497

    Location:
    Connecticut
    I am not unto the technical details of the DACs or anything like that. I do have both a Denon 4806 and a Denon 3910, and they are connected using the Denon Link cable. The SACD playback sounds spectacular, as does the DVD-A playback. 5.1 and stereo, I am freaking thrilled with the fidelity and detail that I get from the Denon Link.

    To me, this is how SACD and DVD-A should have exisited from the git go!

    Again, I have no way to compare the playback to a high end Sony SACD player, so I may be blowing it out my butt on this one!
     
  19. Richard Feirstein

    Richard Feirstein New Member

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    It usually takes about 18 months from the setting of a standard to the introduction of a product to the street. Since this may be a "mere" software tweak the time may be compressed somewhat. Perhaps the Play Station 3 will be one of the first products of offer this feature. But you need both a compatible output as well as input devices, and that could take at least a year from now. Perhaps Denon or Sony will surprise us.

    Richard.
     
  20. GoldenBoy

    GoldenBoy Purple People Eater

    Location:
    US
    This is very true. There aren't many A/V receivers or pre/pros out there with HDMI or FireWire. The few that do exist are very much in the 'high end' category, not the Sunday Best Buy flyer category.
     
  21. GoldenBoy

    GoldenBoy Purple People Eater

    Location:
    US

    I have no doubt that you find the Denon SACD playback wonderful. As I said, it'a all highly subjective. I like the sound of Denon's DVD-A playback, but their SACD playback just rubs me the wrong way. Their receivers are good too, but I have a preference for Sonys. Of course, that could always change. ;)
     
  22. Richard Feirstein

    Richard Feirstein New Member

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    The analog output from my low end Sony 500V SACD/DVD player sounds better then the PCM digital to analog sound from my Denon 3802 Receiver. That cheap Sony player is a wonder.

    Richard.
     
  23. GoldenBoy

    GoldenBoy Purple People Eater

    Location:
    US
    This is how I feel about my XA9000ES. I have yet to hear any A/V receiver - Denon, Sony or otherwise - that improved upon it, IMO. I owned a Marantz SA8260 for about 6 months, and I wouldn't have run that through any external DAC's either.
     
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