Jake Holmes finally does it - lawsuit over "Dazed & Confused"

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by swandown, Jun 29, 2010.

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  1. swandown

    swandown Under Assistant West Coast Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Correct, although I think the publishers convinced Mrs. Valens to take their side by promising to give her more than the 1/6th royalty she was getting from Zep.
     
  2. swandown

    swandown Under Assistant West Coast Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Portland, OR
    I have long suspected this as well. Perhaps a midnight visit from Peter Grant in 1969, offering a small satchel of cash in exchange for a signature? It certainly would explain Holmes' mysterious silence for the next 30 years.
     
  3. JohnG

    JohnG PROG now in Dolby ATMOS!

    Location:
    Long Island NY
    Probably didn't want to go up against Peter Grant in the day.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. cartologist

    cartologist Just the son of an Iowa girl

    Location:
    MA, USA
    I believe Bob Mosley received a settlement for "Never" (Grape Jam, 1968) A/K/A "Since I've Been Loving You" (Led Zeppelin III, 1970) in 2005.
     
  5. janschfan

    janschfan Senior Member

    Location:
    Nashville, Tn. USA
    I hope that's true. :goodie:
     
  6. Lownotes

    Lownotes Senior Member

    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Never fails to amuse me how many people come to Jimmy Page's defense when he is accused of stealing songs.
     
  7. jdlaw

    jdlaw Forum Resident

    Location:
    Michigan
    Never fails to amuse me how people single out Page, and then turn a blind eye to the fact that entire genres did it (the blues), not to mention pretty much every band from the classic rock era (Beatles included). I'm not defending Page, and I think Holmes deserves a settlement. However, if you're going to call out Jimmy Page, call out everyone else too. Hell, I'd wouldn't be shocked if Holmes has made more money just from the association with Led Zeppelin. How many people would have even heard of him or his music otherwise?
     
  8. tages

    tages Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    :righton::righton::righton:[​IMG]
     
  9. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Well put. At least this thread is actually discussing the issue. Usually whenever a thread even remotely related to Led Zeppelin appears, there's a usual brigade of malcontents who feel the need to jump in and threadcrap with the same tired old accusations while ignoring every other case of theft in popular music. They should learn to use the search engine as there are lots of George Harrison threads on here to crap on. :)
     
  10. jdlaw

    jdlaw Forum Resident

    Location:
    Michigan
    The Creation were a great band. Should have had more success. 'Painter Man' and 'Making Time' rocks! A small 'did you know' regarding them is their singer (Kenny Picket) was one of the two Zeppelin roadies on their first American tour (Dec 68- Feb 69).
     
  11. bekayne

    bekayne Senior Member

    What % would the Yardbirds be?
     
  12. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I also hope that's true, though a co-writing credit would be more appropriate. Although he's doing better at present, Bob has had some serious mental health issues and literally lived in a cardboard box for a time in the 80's. A proper co-writing credit would have gone a long way to help him during his worst times.
     
  13. swandown

    swandown Under Assistant West Coast Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Portland, OR
    The lyrics in The Yardbirds' version are almost identical to Jake Holmes' version.

    As for the music.......there is clearly a departure from what Jake Holmes recorded.....and most of those new elements would later appear on Led Zeppelin's version......but how much of that was invented by Page and how much was invented by the other Yardbirds? Page obviously feels that any new musical elements were written by himself alone. Jim McCarty has taken credit for contributing to the Yardbirds' arrangement but he's been mum about whether his contributions carried over to the Zeppelin version.
     
  14. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    So what would be some examples of rock songwriters who've significantly borrowed from other songs without giving credit as many times as Page/Plant? I can think of examples of artists who've done it once (Beach Boys, George Harrison). But can you name anyone else who's done it more than half a dozen times?
     
  15. swandown

    swandown Under Assistant West Coast Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Portland, OR
    How about The Yardbirds, who probably did it half a dozen times before Page even joined the band?
     
  16. (a) "Dazed" is hardly in the blues tradition, which is based around formulaic chord progressions and lyric patterns that would make any sort of "ownership" hard to prove. By contrast, the provenance of LZ's "Dazed" is very clear.

    (b) Which Beatles songs are as clear a crib on an earlier tune as LZ's "Dazed" is??
     
  17. EDIT: misread a post and thus replied in error...
     
  18. ceevert

    ceevert Forum Resident

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA, USA
    It's really not an issue of blues borrowings. Many blues standards were part of a tradition that took very freely from songs heard/learned over the years. In many cases it is impossible, if not fatuous to attempt, to find an original composer. Especially when you can only make a claim on what was actually recorded and by whom. There was/is a blues tradition that seems to exist outside of any kind of copyright law.

    On the other hand, there's no way that anyone could claim Jimmy Page or any English musician as being part of that tradition.

    All things considered, there are a substantial number of recordings that the musician(s) in question claim writing credits for that they in fact clearly did not write. They may have added something to make them popular, but they sure as hell don't deserve the composer's royalties.

    Such is the case with Led Zeppelin, throughout their career. Love 'em or not.
     
  19. jdlaw

    jdlaw Forum Resident

    Location:
    Michigan

    'Come Together' and 'Run For Your Life'. Not to mention 'My Sweet Lord' by Harrison.
     
  20. jdlaw

    jdlaw Forum Resident

    Location:
    Michigan
    Well, how about the Beatles 'Come Together' and 'Run For Your Life' for example. Also, I never brought up number of occurances. You did. My point was there's many cases of other acts doing the same thing that nobody mentions.
     
  21. zen

    zen Senior Member

    Just one line in "Run For Your Life" was taken from the Arthur Gunter's song "Baby, Let's Play House." Does that really count? :confused:
     
  22. jdlaw

    jdlaw Forum Resident

    Location:
    Michigan
    Why not? Somebody brought up 'Since I've Been Loving You'. That was I think 2 lines.
     
  23. Raylinds

    Raylinds Resident Lake Surfer

    How are you not defending Page? There's borrowing and there's theft. Of course I wouldn't expect one with your avatar to be unbiased. Anyone familiar with music history knows Page was infamous for this.

    You're right, Holmes should thank Jimmy.

    Oh yeah, and multiple wrongs make a right?
     
  24. jdlaw

    jdlaw Forum Resident

    Location:
    Michigan
    I've been reading a book called 'Grit, Noise, and Revloution' by David Carson. It's about the Detroit music scene dating from the mid 40's to the early 70's. One of the artists it talks about is John Lee Hooker. A song of his Zeppelin liked to perform a lot was 'Boogie Chillin'. Here's a quote from the book regarding the recording of 'Boogie Chillin'; "The thing come into me. It was a funky old lick I found. I heard Will Moore (his step-dad) do a song like that when I was a little kid down south, but he didn't call it 'Boogie Chillin'. But it had that beat". Should Hooker have been sued by Moore for 'Boogie Chillin'? Or was it paying tribute, same as Zeppelin did?
     
  25. jdlaw

    jdlaw Forum Resident

    Location:
    Michigan
    Wow, this is turning into 20 people against me. Like a pack of wolfs. Come get some! :laugh: j/k
     
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