Jake Holmes finally does it - lawsuit over "Dazed & Confused"

Be careful attacking the sacred cow of the forum.

 

I love the Beatles as much as anyone else on here. Dude wanted an example regarding the Beatles, so I gave him one.

 

The difference is that Hooker can claim to have 'heard' the song as the result of a shared cultural/social experience beyond the realm of copyright. British musicians were pilfering from records.

I really think the 'blues musicians did it, so why can't everyone else?' argument doesn't succeed. Different people, different worlds, different (commercial) ends.

 

My point was that the reason people criticize Zeppelin more than other songwriters is the amount of times they did this sort of thing. If they'd only done it once or twice people would not make as big a deal out of it. Maybe there were lots of people who did this, but there weren't lots of people who did it 7 or 8 times.

 

I respect your point, I just don't know if I agree. British musicians from that era loved and respected the blues far, far more then Americans did at the time. It very much was paying tribute. Also, I don't think it should be a race/culture thing. If you're depressed for whatever reason, you can play and are entitled to 'the blues' music, IMO. People forget that Page/Zeppelin were far from rich and famous when the majority of cases against them occurred. I believe Page spent most of his savings to record the first album. Point being, had Zeppelin never succeeded the way they did, I wonder if they would still be attacked the way they are?

 

+1

I hope Jake finally gets paid.

 

Fair enough.

 

The flipside of that same argument is that every Zeppelin song has been heavily scrutinized to the point where they've been accused of misdeeds in situations where most other artists would get a pass.

 

More than that. As noted, the first two lines of the song are virtually identical (except for the transposition of times which turns a regular graveyard shift into an ridiculously-severe 16-hour shift). Beyond that, the Zeppelin song also appropriates Mosley's phrase "best of fools." And Mosley's "Hear my crying/Can't you hear me?" is quite similar to Zep's "Said I've been crying, my tears they fell like rain/Don't you hear, Don't you hear them falling." Likewise Mosley's "Cause I love you/Yeah, I love you/I need you, baby" is similar to Zep's "Cause I love you, baby/How I love you, darling/How I love you, baby/How I love you, girl, little girl."

All in all, quite a few similarities. Aside from the lines about the back door man, there is nothing in Zeppelin's lyrics that does not seem directly inspired, if not outright copied, from Mosley's song.

 

I'll take your word for it. I admit I havn't heard the song in a minute. All I remember being similar was the first couple of lines, "I've been working from 7 to 11 everynight. Kinda makes life a drag", etc. I love Moby Grape (so does Robert Plant) so if he deserved that money I'm glad he got it.

p.s. the opening licks to the song came from the Yardbirds 'New York City Blues'.

 

In the 80's when first hearing it, at the time, I had thought that was LZ's best original blues song to date, but after hearing Mosley's version as linked on the forum some time ago, I guess I had been wrong about that. Fwiw. They certainly made Dazed their own, through the song reconstruction, and the arrangement and performance, and Since I've Been Loving You was a good one too, but it seems someone else had written and performed the crux of those tunes already.

 

There's very little that is original about "Since I've Been Loving You." Take the opening five-notes, Page stole them outright from Jeff Beck in the Yardbirds' "New York City Blues."

 

But can you cite any examples of other artists getting a pass for similar things? Pretty much every classic rock artist from that era has had their albums heavily scrutinized over the past 30-40 years. If there were a bunch of instances of this by some other classic rock artist, I would think someone would have noticed, even if lawsuits were not filed. Most of the other examples that have been cited (Surfin USA, My Sweet Lord, Come Together) were not given a pass, but were successfully sued.

 

I like Holmes' Dazed and Confused recording. Just out of curiosity, I can't help but wonder just how it sounded that very night he played it at that concert.

 

I'll have to give the Moby Grape version another listen. Could have swore (other then the opening notes + some of the lyrics) that the arrangement of the song was original. Regardless, the Zeppelin version (especially the live versions) is smokin' red hot and includes some of Page's best guitar playing (the solo especially).

 

I hate to be this blunt, but this is the biggest bunch of nonsense I've seen yet. Page wasn't fnancially successful at the time of the first Led Zeppelin album? After being one of the most-called session men for how many years? After being part of the Yardbirds?

British musicians may have loved and respected the blues far, far more than Americans did at the time. But the blues WAS a "race/culture" thing, at least as far as appropriation goes. No way that I, a white middle-aged, at least American, have a right to appropriate this music as mine. I may be able to play it, love it, think I understand it, and do a credible job with it, but there is no way in hell that it will ever be my music no matter how depressed I may be.

And there is no way in hell it will ever be Led Zeppelin's music.

 

Nonsence huh? Look, I wasn't his accountant or anything. From what I've read, he spent the majority of his savings on the recording sessions of Led Zeppelin 1. If you don't agree, blame the history books and not me. Believe it or not, prior to Peter Grant becoming manager of the Yardbirds, they weren't making crap for money. I doubt session work made him rich either.

As for your second paragraph, your full of s**t! I can't even believe I just read that. Music is for EVERYBODY regardless of race or background. Sorry if I was too blunt.

 

The Small Faces ("You Need Love") and Ritchie Valens ("Ooh My Head").

Sure, those thefts might get a brief mention in passing, but that's it. No outrage. No crucifying.

But they're still given a pass. Start a thread dedicated to "Whole Lotta Love", and it will instantly be filled with a dozen posts critical not just of the songwriting credits, but of the song itself and the band itself.

Start a thread dedicated to "Surfin' USA" and it will instantly be filled with a dozen posts asking who was more awesome, Brian Wilson or Paul McCartney.

 

Thank you!!!!! That's EXACTLY the point I was trying to make.

 

Oh, I see. You meant "given a pass" on this forum, not given a pass in the world in general. I get it.

I think we've gotten to the point where we're arguing in circles, though. I truly believe the reason Led Zeppelin gets so much criticism is because they did it more often than anyone else. So far, no one has cited an example of any other rock songwriter who did this sort of thing more than twice. If you can come up with someone who did it a half-dozen times but is rarely criticized, I'll happily concede there must be an anti-Zep bias here.

 

As for Page's financial situation at the time of LZ's formation, I have no knowledge or interest. I simply stated that I found it hard to believe he was not well off given his past history. Which was totally irrelevant to my other point which you completely misunderstood.

I agree with you, music is for everybody, regardless of race or background. I never said or indicated otherwise. However, like it or not, indiginous folk musics emerge from specific cultures, which may or not be racially based, be they blues, zydeco, cajun, salsa, polkas (many cultures/races), meringue, soukou, zouk, etc., etc., etc. If these musics are appropriated into other styles - specifically rock in the case under discussion - they are simply that: music from one culture appropriated into another. But not the same thing as the original music. Nor are the artists really part of the tradition. So if Led Zeppelin play a blues song, are they really playing blues, or just rock music based on the blues? (And the fact that they appropriated that blues song, in some cases with very few changes, are they the writers of the material?) And just as well, if Led Zeppelin play a British folk tune, following a specific arrangement another Englishman created (c.f. Davy Graham "She Moves Through the Fair" or Bert Jansch "Black Waterside") are they part of the English tradition or appropriating it from others?

I don't discount appropriations of music outside of the artist's culture. Not at all. Some of my favorite, etc, etc… But please don't tell me I'm full of ***** because I don't think Led Zeppelin are a legitimate part of the blues tradition. The tradition is much, much richer than that. And, while they may have lead many to the real thing, they are not part of it, no matter what you may choose to believe.

 

So then, there's a media bias against Zeppelin...?

 

Well, firstly I assumed you were interested since you asked me if Page was financially successful or not. The answer (from what I've read, I wasn't there) is not really. He wasn't broke, but he was far from being a rich and famous rock star at that point.

Second, you make much more sence the second time around. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you and jumped the gun, but your first post came off as a "how dare those white boys play blues music, it doesn't belong to them" sorta thing. That's how I took it, and found it offensive. Again, if I misunderstood you then I apologize. I hear what you're saying this time, and it's a valid point. However, I've heard interviews with people like Eric Clapton (who was playing similar music to Zeppelin at the time in Cream/Blind Faith, etc) talk about how deeply affected he was by the blues, and that when he played it would come from his soul. That's what I was getting at when I said everyone is entitled too it, if they truely feel it. Zeppelin were truely fans of the music (especially Page/Plant). It wasn't about them trying to exploit it for the money. In 1968/1969, they had no clue how rich and famous they would go on to be.

 

Here are 10 from Mick & the Stones, with varying degrees of severity:

1. "Love In Vain" (Jagger/Richards) = "Love In Vain" (Robert Johnson)
2. "Stop Breaking Down" (trad, arr. Jagger/Richards) = "Stop Breaking Down" (Robert Johnson)
3. "Prodigal Son" (Jagger/Richards) = "Prodigal Son" (Wilkins) (this one was corrected fairly quickly)
4. "Don't Lie To Me" (Jagger/Richards) = "Don't Lie To Me" (Berry)
5. "I'm All Right" (Nanker, Phelge) = "I'm All Right" (McDaniel)
6. "Shang A Doo Lang" = "He's So Fine"
7. "Satisfaction" (Jagger/Richards) = "Dancing In The Street"
8. "Anybody Seen My Baby" = "Constant Craving" (at least they caught this one just before it was released)
9. "Saint Of Me" = "Oh Yeah" by Mark Gaillard & Mary Anderson (1995)
10. "Just Another Night" (Jagger) = "Just Another Night" (Patrick Alley)

And that's not even counting those who claim their writing contributions were utilized without compensation (Brian Jones, Mike Leander, Marianne Faithfull, Bill Wyman, Ry Cooder, Mick Taylor, etc.)

 

I'm not hearing this at all.