Jill Gibson's vocals on the 2nd Mamas and Papas LP

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by johnsmusicbox, Mar 6, 2009.

  1. Joel Cairo

    Joel Cairo Video Gort / Paiute Warrior Staff

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    As I was pointing out, there was an actual performance with Jill, but it was snipped out of the show's master tape, and replaced with a re-shot performance that featured Michelle. Although you can't see her due to the silhouette lighting, the girl sitting next to Cass during Bing's introduction is Jill.

    Sadly, you'll probably find the tape reel with Jill's performance in the same non-existent warehouse that houses the "tens of thousands" of copies of "Crashon Screamon" that were to be sent out... :shake:

    - Kevin
     
  2. DTK

    DTK Forum Resident

    Location:
    Europe
    This is interesting. Sorry for being lazy, but this Jill appears on several MATP recordings?
     
  3. Larry Geller

    Larry Geller Surround sound lunatic

    Location:
    Bayside, NY
    That's exactly what it was. And it was only a year and a half after release. And I don't remember if there was a record in there, it might have been just an empty cover, but it wasn't just a slick. The problem is that I was totally distracted a minute later by my first ever viewing of a Butcher Cover, which was hung up on the wall, and which I had no idea even existed.
     
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  4. Joel Cairo

    Joel Cairo Video Gort / Paiute Warrior Staff

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    I was going to ask you about the possibility that it might only have been the cover, but I didn't want to look like I was interrogating you... :D

    I'd find it quite easy to believe that at least **some** covers were fabricated for internal company use (artwork approvals, etc.... and the area around the New York offices is where such a thing would be likely be found), but it does appear that the actual vinyl may not have been pressed.

    Though I certainly hope that I'm wrong on that last point...!

    - Kevin
     
  5. Joel Cairo

    Joel Cairo Video Gort / Paiute Warrior Staff

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    So in summary, the final "The Mamas & The Papas" LP consists of:

    A1. No Salt on Her Tail (4/28/66, 8/23/66 new backing track overdub & 8/24/66 overdub)
    A2. Trip, Stumble and Fall (4/25/66, 7/25/66 [with JG] & 8/2/66 new bass, drum & keyboard overdubs)
    A3. Dancing Bear (7/8/66 [with JG] & 7/27/66 [with JG]
    A4. Words of Love (4/26/66)
    A5. My Heart Stood Still (8/23/66 & 8/24/66)
    A6. Dancing in the Street (4/25/66 & 8/23/66)

    B1. I Saw Her Again (4/26/66 & 4/27/66)
    B2. Strange Young Girls (7/31/66 [with JG], 8/3/66 new backing track & 8/23/66 MP overdubs)
    B3. I Can't Wait (7/6/66 [with JG] & 8/2/66 new bass, drum & keyboard overdubs)
    B4. Even If I Could (4/25/66 & 7/15/66 [with JG])
    B5. That Kind of Girl (7/24/66 [with JG] & 8/23/66 new backing track & MP overdubs)
    B6. Once Was a Time I Thought (4/28/66)

    Spare tracks from sessions available for the LP:
    1. Did You Ever Want to Cry (7/24/66 [with JG] & 7/26/66 new backing track overdub)
    2. Here In My Arms (4/28/66 version)

    • 1st chart appearance: 10/1/66 (likely released 9/24/66)

    • Additional 11/9/66 orchestral overdub for the mono “Words of Love” single mix.

    • 11/29/66 new backing track overdub for mono “Did You Ever Want to Cry” single mix

    - Kevin
     
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  6. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Any idea how this fits with my notes on the different mixes?
     
  7. Joel Cairo

    Joel Cairo Video Gort / Paiute Warrior Staff

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Now let's look at what we know about "Crashon Screamon...":

    - According to the unearthed documents, the cover slicks and record labels had to be reprinted-- for the cover slicks (front & back), the reason is obvious-- but the fact that the labels need to be reprinted means that the song lineup changed from the one that had originally been decided upon.

    This is easily confirmed, because one of the songs that made the final LP ("My Heart Stood Still") had not even been recorded until Michelle's return. So we have at least one hole in the A-side lineup. However, assuming that the running order was largely being preserved (to make as few changes as possible, given the subsequent time crunch that the group faced to get the album out after Michelle's return), the A side would have at least been:

    A1.
    A2. Trip, Stumble and Fall (4/25/66, 7/25/66 [with JG] & 8/2/66 new bass, drum & keyboard OD)
    A3. Dancing Bear (7/8/66 [with JG] & 7/27/66 [with JG])
    A4. Words of Love (4/26/66)
    A5.
    A6.

    So from our present-day standpoint, what were the available tracks to draw upon prior to Michelle's return, if we're going to attempt to re-create the original "Crashon Screamon..." line-up? They were:

    1. Did You Ever Want to Cry (7/24/66 [with JG] & 7/26/66 new backing track OD)
    2. Dancing In the Street (4/25/66 version)
    3. Here In My Arms (4/28/66 version)
    4. No Salt on Her Tail (4/28/66 version, 7/5/66 new backing track)
    My guess? The running order the final album was probably kept as similar as possible to the one approved for "Crashon Screamon...", just to keep the same "feel" to the LP, so "Crashon..." probably had used the April/July version of "No Salt..." and the original 4/25/66 version of "Dancing in the Street" in the first and sixth positions respectively; and since "Did You Ever Want to Cry" was probably considered a finished track at that point, it could have originally occupied the 5th position.

    So "Crashon Screamon..." likely had an A-side that looked like this:

    A1. No Salt on her Tail (4/28/66 version, 7/5/66 new backing track)
    A2. Trip, Stumble and Fall (4/25/66, 7/25/66 [with JG] & 8/2/66 new bass, drum & keyboard OD)
    A3. Dancing Bear (7/8/66 [with JG] & 7/27/66 [with JG])
    A4. Words of Love (4/26/66)
    A5. Did You Ever Want to Cry (7/24/66 [with JG] & 7/26/66 new backing track OD)
    A6. Dancing In the Street (4/25/66 version)

    The B-side of the album gets even a little more interesting...:

    We know from Discogs research that there are stereo copies of "The Mamas & the The Papas" with a B-side cutting date of 8/21/66 in the deadwax (or-- maybe we don't... see the next page). From the session info that we have, if this is true, the logical conclusion is that this represents the original "Crashon Screamon..." mastering for that side, since Michelle had not yet been in the studio to do overdubs onto any of the material.

    Assuming the 8/21/66 cutting date is correct, those stereo B-sides must be composed of the following:

    B1. I Saw Her Again (4/26/66 & 4/27/66)
    B2. Strange Young Girls (7/31/66 [with JG] & 8/3/66 new backing track)
    B3. I Can't Wait (7/6/66 [with JG] & 8/2/66 new bass, drum & keyboard OD)
    B4. Even If I Could (4/25/66 & 7/15/66 [with JG])
    B5. That Kind of Girl (7/24/66 [with JG])
    B6. Once Was a Time I Thought (4/28/66)

    The only additions to this side are overdubs to "Strange Young Girls" and "That Kind of Girl". "That Kind of Girl" should be the one with a more noticeable difference, as the final version apparently has a new backing track overdub, along with some additional vocals by Michelle.

    So by piecing together needle drops from specific pressings of the final album, it appears that about 3/4 of the original "Crashon Screamon..." lineup can be obtained (the middle three tracks on the A-side of the final album, and the entire 8/21/66 mastering of the B-side... (if such a B-side exists)...!

    Well, it's a good start, anyway...!

    - Kevin
     
  8. Joel Cairo

    Joel Cairo Video Gort / Paiute Warrior Staff

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    I think your conclusions certainly fit our understanding of the recording facts that we have at hand... they were attempting to replicate the single version for the mono LP mix, and it sounds as though they just did a better job of muting the answer vocals the second time.

    (I always do wonder about notable differences between stereo & mono mixes... though in this case, there was no doubt a lot of pressure to get the product out the door.)

    - Kevin
     
  9. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    As noted, though, it *seems* like the ghost vocals heard on the 45 mix are actually different from those on the stereo mix.

    I wonder if the "answer" vocals would have been present on the mono mixes had the lineup changes not happened when they did.
     
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  10. Joel Cairo

    Joel Cairo Video Gort / Paiute Warrior Staff

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    That makes sense, since the 45 was the earliest mix done (using the 4/25/66 version), and they probably had Jill re-do those as part of her later overdub... even though they ended up not using them in the final mono mix.

    Well, it's a good question, which we likely will never know the answer to. After Jill's overdub, though, I'm guessing they listened to it, and figured that even with the new vocals, they preferred the style of the single mix, so they just ended up muting the answer vocals altogether. (And this assumes that the mono mix was the one that everyone cared about, meaning that as you posited, the stereo mix was just a slightly sloppy secondary effort. Which I don't think is much of a stretch for 1966.)

    - Kevin
     
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  11. karmaman

    karmaman Forum Resident

  12. karmaman

    karmaman Forum Resident

    [​IMG]

    don't know if these are widely seen images, but seemed a good opportunity to share them here.
     
  13. bumbletort

    bumbletort Senior Member

    Location:
    Baltimore, Md, USA
    Are there translations of these handy?
     
  14. Larry Geller

    Larry Geller Surround sound lunatic

    Location:
    Bayside, NY
    "Das ist nicht Michelle".
     
  15. pobbard

    pobbard Still buying CDs

    Location:
    Andover, MA
    My German is good enough to know that they call Jill the "new Mama" and the "Michelle replacement"...
     
  16. xilef regnu

    xilef regnu Senior Member

    Location:
    PNW
    Interesting thread! Searched around a bit; is this a video of Jill with the group?(see 2:27) If so, she was a "ringer" for Michelle.

     
  17. Joel Cairo

    Joel Cairo Video Gort / Paiute Warrior Staff

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    No, that's Michelle. The promo film was produced before the whole situation blew up into Michelle being fired.

    - Kevin
     
  18. MarcS

    MarcS Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey
    I just watched this clip; Bing also introduces the first song as from their upcoming album Crashon. Screamon All Fall Down which is further proof it was originally shot with Jill.
     
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  19. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Here's the clip:



    Possibly worth noting that Bing refers to it as "Crashon Screamon Singon and All Fall Down". That title (without the "and") is also mentioned in the August 27, 1966 edition of Beat (which I see is referenced in post 67, albeit not reproduced in full):

    Mama's & Papa's Wax Unique LP

    Exclusively to The BEAT from Lou Adler, executive producer for Dunhill Records, this week comes news of the brand new album about to be released by the Mama's and Papa's.

    The album will be the second to be released by the popular foursome, and will be entitled "Crashon Screamon Singon All Fall Down."

    Although the final decision had not been made as we went to press, tentative plans for the album called for a total of 14 tracks - something which is almost never done.

    Some of the selections included in the new LP will be "The Dancing Bear," sung by Denny; "That Kind Of Girl," "Once Was A Time," which will be sung acapella by the entire group without any orchestration to accompany them; and "I Can't Wait."

    Cass and John will sing a duet on one cut of the LP, while Cass will be soloing on two others. John has written a total of ten new songs for the album, one of which will be a surprise number. The only thing we can tell you about this track now is that it will only be one minute in length - but you will be surprised and pleased by what you will hear in those 60 seconds.

    It is only just now that the world of pop has sufficiently recovered from the first onslaught by The Mama's and Papa's to be able to "believe their eyes and ears." But this exciting new release from the talented quartet should send us all reeling right back into tubs of disbelief. Another sensational album from the Mama's and the Papa's.
     
  20. Hall Cat

    Hall Cat Senior Member

    Location:
    Chicago, IL USA
    Did they really use those apostrophe 's? Yikes
     
  21. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Transcribed verbatim (hopefully).
     
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  22. MarcS

    MarcS Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey
  23. bumbletort

    bumbletort Senior Member

    Location:
    Baltimore, Md, USA
    The two additional songs that were planned...anybody got any ideas? They're not Phillips' songs--the album as is has 10 already. My guess would be two Rogers & Hart numbers from the show: "Glad to be Unhappy" and "Sing for Your Supper"?
     
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  24. R Jim

    R Jim New Member

    I'm a huge M and the P's fan and have followed this thread for over a decade as I continue to find Jill Gibson's tenure in the band the most fascinating part of their colorful history. I'm thrilled it's still being discussed more than ten years later. The second album (how I wish they'd kept the title of Crashon Screamon All Fall Down!) is still my favorite of the band's and I just got thru listening to it a few days ago for the gazillionth time. Even though this thread eventually determined which songs Jill sang on, I will always maintain that careful, repeated listens reveal Jill singing on "Strange Young Girls." Michelle may have rerecorded some overdubs for the final release, but I'd be willing to bet money that Jill's part was unable to be eradicated. The high-pitched, girlish voice on her classic flop single "It's as Easy as 1 2 3" sounds prominent on that song and on "Trip Stumble and Fall." To make matters more confusing, at least for myself, I would also swear I can hear Michelle on "Dancing Bear," which she supposedly didn't sing on, and on "I Can't Wait." So I reason that, to placate Michelle and make her feel like she was a worthy contribution to the original lineup, she was allowed to sing on top of some of the already in place tracks, a theory that's been put forth long before me. I also maintain that Jill probably does remember singing on more tracks but they were most likely the same songs Michelle recorded and in the end they went with some Jill and some Michelle, possibly because they preferred the sound of one mix over the other. The songs with Michelle seem a little more obvious to me because she'd been with the group since its inception, and even with the weakest voice to offer she probably was more confident when it came to singing out and not being drowned out by Cass. Jill's voice strikes me as prettier and more girlish but more lost in the mix thanks to the strong vocals of Cass, John, and Denny.
     
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  25. Joel Cairo

    Joel Cairo Video Gort / Paiute Warrior Staff

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Just in case anyone wondered how it was accomplished...

    [​IMG]

    Jill Gibson - Replacing Michelle on LP cover.jpg

    - Kevin
     

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