Not much of a " magic formula " , pretty basic stuff. Thanks for the link. Jim Smith is no doubt an expert on the topic, been following him for decades.
The formula is simple but the magic is knowing that the most experienced setup guy has found 83% to be the magic number for most and 82% and 84% are the outside limits in most cases.
Tape measures are a pain in the butt to use due to recoiling and also that you have to be very careful working around drivers. A laser pointer has an advantage there.
So does a $100k Zeiss GPS central station But once set-up you are done. Use the string/nut as a plumb bob. At the centerline of each speaker, place a coin Measure d between the coins. At d/2 between speaker coins place another coin. Measure straight out from that point 1.09 d and place a coin: LP. If you want to check measure from the SP coin to each speaker coin, = 1.2 d Adjust if required. A laser is a bit easier but if that is the only use a tape measure will get you close. That is all I'm saying.
That’s definitely an issue. But the only answer to that is head tracking DSP. That’s a subject for a different thread
@avanti1960 started a thread on the laser device a couple years ago. I bought one immediately, and use it often, and not just for audio stuff.
I am a retired land surveyor. I know all about making precise and very accurate distance measurements when required. Those little handheld laser devices are handy items to have if one has need of one. I'm not sure that using one to find where to sit to listen to music is very cost effective, but if you have need of it for other uses, then it would work quite exceedingly well for sure. Getting back to the gist of the thread.................................. I did some quick calculations of my set up and measured out the distances and put a piece of tape on the floor where I should sit. It was rather interesting to see that location. I knew just from the mathematics that the calculated listening spot was a fairly nearfield spot. After thinking about this, it made a lot of sense. Nearfield listening lessens the room effects a whole lot. With an essentially random speaker placement and where the only calculation is the listening spot, a nearfield spot makes a lot of sense. I can see why this would work. I can see why this has been observed to work well over a long time of observations. And anyone who goes back to Bozak Concert Grand days, like Jim Smith, has a lot of years of observations. What I found in my own set up is that the spot is about a foot closer to the speakers than where I sat when I recently re-did my Master Set procedure. Perhaps if I feel like tweaking the set up I will sit in that location. However I can say that for regular music listening it would not be a preferred seating location for me. We all have our preferences.
I just got new stands so did a new location. A little over 8' spacing. I sit 11-11.5'. I decreased toe-in, maybe 12 deg off axis. Sounds better, better imaging and soundstage, resolution. It is counter intuitive, I would have thought the less toe-in the bigger the gap in the middle. Coltrane's sax is now dead center (My Favorite Things, with outtakes). Don't really want to get any closer but if I can get a few inches more speaker spacing to 8.5', and scoot up to 10.5 that should get me close ~0.83 or 1.2, I might try it. Now 0.75, 1.32 and it seems too close?
This is interesting but it definitely isn't preferable with my set-up. After extensive listening and measuring (REW Umik-1) both my ears and measurements tell me the best response and most enveloping 3-D soundstage occurs when I'm sitting more nearfield that the tip of the equilateral triangle. From the right spot when I move my head forward the ambient sounds are suddenly all around me and I get the auditory sensation of moving "through the screen" and into the room of the recording. It's uncanny. Anyone else experience this? Again, it most definitely only occurs when sitting roughly 80cm nearfield of the tip of the equilateral triangle.
I gotta admit that this small bit of advice really helped the sound in my room. My speakers were too far apart ... it made it seem like the sound had more "air" , but the center image was not clearly defined and some details got lost in the shuffle. Now the music is much better , there's better focus and instruments have more impact than before. I'll try fine tuning it , but I'm pretty happy with what I'm hearing now. BTW - To me it's easier to understand that the listener should be 1.2 x the distance between the speakers than the x over y ratio of .82.... but that's just the way my brain works
All the credit goes to Jim but it makes me happy to read that people are getting better sound from doing this.
I've always started with the 80% triangle method for larger speakers, they need room to breathe. Much like a musical instrument, imo.
I can only add that I have observed this same thing from a close nearfield listening position. And my speakers are set with Master Set.
The point of the video is that equilateral triangles have un-involving sound. You get much better results when the chair is a good bit beyond the lower point of the triangle. Start with the 83% and adjust just slightly and you will get the best possible sound. I have now tried this on seven systems and it has worked beautifully every time. There is nothing near field about this by the way.
Thats about what i do. I also use a spectrum analyzer to help with setup. Interesting that my current speakers are not nearly as fussy about positioning, toe etc as some speakers I've had. They sound quite good anywhere and sitting position does not need to be optimal.
Yes, I can freely admit that I was mistaken to have mentioned that the 83% idea gives a nearfield position. It does not.
I hear you, Dr. Fine. I don't doubt your method works better for you, with all your experience and own research. I have my own method myself. Thanx for sharing
Golden Cuboid Listening Room Diagram By George Cardas The Golden Cuboid listening room is 10’ x 16’ x 26’ (Read 10.000 x 16.18033989... x 26.18033989... It’s dimensions differ in a Golden Ratio or Fibonacci sequence (5-8-13-21-34...). The three major room nodes progress or differ in Golden Ratio and thus null rather than add or beat.
This works for me with some recordings. For best results with most recordings though, I always end up moving my chair back to the original position
What is and is not "involving" is entirely subjective.There is no metric for it. And frankly I am skeptical of any "magic one size fits all formula" with the substantial diversity we have with both listening rooms and speakers with their vasly different radiation patterns, frequency responses and other differences. I remember someone on the old Stereophile message boards who swore by some pretty, how shall I say it, "unusual" tweaks. One of which was putting pictures of relatives and family pets in his kitchen freezer. I am not making this up. He swore that in his experience this improved the sound. No one can actually argue that he did not enjoy the sound better with a picture of his uncle and his dog in the kitchen freezer. But I think this is a fine illustration on how we may hear things differently while the sound itself may not have changed. Expectation bias and confirmation bias are real and powerful influences on our perception. So when you tell us that you have tried this on 7 systems it doesn't really give us any usuable information other than you liked it under sighted conditions. We have no objective measure of how an equilateral triangle configuration has a universal effect in different rooms with different speakers of reducing the sense of "involvement." And I would assert here that the sense of involvement from any stereo is going to be very source material/listener preferences dependent. I'm not saying your experiences are not valid for you. I'm not saying nobody should try this. It is free of charge and free of risk. But I would strongly advise everyone to pay attention to your room acoustics if you haven't given it high priority already.
I didn’t think this was controversial. Everyone I know does this. Works for internet and TV too. Even keeps rats away.
