Jimi Hendrix Both Sides of the Sky - new album coming March 9, 2018

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by fsutall, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. Deek57

    Deek57 Forum Resident

    The way I have always understood it is that first there is a multi track, from that a mix is made to a second tape which is called the master. So it seems from what you seem to be saying is the multis are missing and all that there is are the Douglas butchered masters..
  2. !Won desufnoc gnikcuf m'I

  3. slane

    slane Forum Resident

    While it may be possible that Douglas chopped up the original multitrack, I tend to think that's not the case. Douglas included 3 repeats of the same chorus on the Crash Landing version. This could not have been mixed solely from the original multitrack, as at least 2 of those chorus sections must have been copies that were spliced in. So why not just copy the whole multitrack (with additional copies of the repeated sections) and chop that up? That seems much more likely to me.
    DTK likes this.
  4. hoggydoggy

    hoggydoggy Forum Resident

    I'm gonna jump in on this!

    Gordon: I understand completely what you are saying about what's happened to the Master, but just want to clarify matters re the Master v. Stereo mixes - here's a chronology as I understand it (I'm using US date format, since this is primarily an American forum),

    01/21/70: Basic Master tracks recorded by BoG of Power Of Soul
    03/02/70: Overdubs added to the Master
    03/02/70: A stereo mix (call this "Mix #1) created from the original Master by Jimi & Bob Hughes
    08/22/70: A second stereo mix (Mix #2) created from the original Master by Jimi & Eddie Kramer
    Late 1974-early 1975: Original Master tape chopped-up by Alan Douglas, percussion overdubs added to edited Master & mixed for Crash Landing (Mix #3)
    1997: Eddie Kramer creates a new mix from the chopped-up Master, mixed to sound similar to Jimi's Aug '70 mix (Mix #2) albeit shorter, and released on South Saturn Delta (Mix #4)
    March 2018: Allegedly Jimi's/Eddie's 08/22/70 mix is being released on Both Sides... yet is apparently shorter than the original master tape; why??

    Being logical about this, there is only one reason why the Both Sides mix is shorter & that it is yet another new mix, created in 2017/2018 from the edited Master (i.e. Mix #5) - is that what we're all saying?

    Re the historic Hendrix mixes: we've had Mix #2 released as B-aside, but Mix #2 from 08/22/70 is still missing - since this is a 2-track mixdown (and exists/existed as a completely separate "child" tape of the Master) it SHOULD be around somewhere as a physical entity, but has inexplicably been overlooked by Experience Hendrix. My question to this is,

    1) Does it still exist?
    2) If it does, why has it not been released yet? An original Hendrix mixdown from his final week in the studio should be a prime candidate.

    Hope I've got all the requisite parts of the tale right - this is starting to feel like a subject worthy of its own thread!
  5. Gordon Johnson

    Gordon Johnson Forum Resident

    Liverpool, South
    Sorry guys, you add stuff to simply confuse yourselves or to suit how you would like things so am not explaining this any further.:D

    I suggest you all do your own homework if you feel what's presented here is not what you want to hear or feel there are questions not answered!

    I have not said at any point, stereo master, stereo mix, a second stereo mix etc etc. What AD did was simply chop pieces out of the MASTER TAPE. That master tape contained the basic track and overdubs.

    Yep, I guess if you guys want to develop this and chat between yourselves the various scenarios and hypotheses you can come up with then I guess a new thread should be developed.

    If anyone is unhappy with this reply, mail your questions directly to EH :agree:

    Just a tip, read my post #1625 and forget about the last line. It might just be easier for you to understand.
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  6. Gordon Johnson

    Gordon Johnson Forum Resident

    Liverpool, South
    What I will do as its on topic, I will list all the versions and where to find them for this recording including the edits etc.

    I'll expand on the Power of Soul (36), (37) and (57) to include the (50) and (56) variations .............. but that will have to wait till tonight. Not least because I need to remind myself of the detail :p
    Matthew Tate likes this.
  7. Gordon Johnson

    Gordon Johnson Forum Resident

    Liverpool, South
    Just glad I never gave details for any of the other tracks on the BSoTS release, be here for ever!!!!!
    Matthew Tate likes this.
  8. kees1954

    kees1954 Forum Resident

    Next question I would like to raise is: who is playing on Things I Used To Do? It's for 99% certain that Dallas Taylor is NOT playing drums. If you read the biographies of Dallas and Doug Lubahn, Dallas had a troubled relationship with Jimi. Jimi nicked his girlfriend Denise Betancourt. She accompanied Jimi to the Miami Pop Festival. This all happened in May 1968 when Dallas and Doug's group, Clear Light, were recording at The Record Plant, as was Jimi.

    This is probably a picture of Denise, to be found on the innercover of the US version of the original ELL 2LP set.
    Gordon Johnson likes this.
  9. J.Lucas

    J.Lucas Well-Known Member

    Quoting the info. in the Collector's '69 Set...
    "Under the listing for Driving South in Jimpress the session musicians are listed as Jimi Hendrix(guitar), Johnny Winter(guitar), Stephen Stills(bass), and Dallas Taylor(drums);
    this is likely a clerical error as this is the only place throughout the Jimpress volumes with this lineup for this session/date-these are also the personnel listed for
    these tracks in Bell.
    "..There appears to be three guitarists on this track so the following line up is likely correct.
    Jimi Hendrix(guitar), Johnny Winter(slide guitar), Stephen Stills(guitar). Billy Cox(bass) and Buddy Miles(drums)
    Engineer: Lee Brown
  10. Gordon Johnson

    Gordon Johnson Forum Resident

    Liverpool, South
    Power Of Soul. A.K.A. Paper Airplanes

    All numbers in ( ) are the From The Benjamin Franklin Studios reference source.

    It may be that these books will be re-issued in a smaller format to help overcome the cost constraints which did restrict buyers, both overseas and in the UK. If that becomes viable I will let you know.

    Studio reference only;

    While I will list one bootleg from which these takes can be found when not officially issued I would urge interested parties to chat with their friendly Hendrix collector who can no doubt share a collectors set on which they can all be found!

    I’m avoiding “passing” phrases from this song incorporated into other songs and jams [including “home” jams] so I’m skipping (1) and (2-5).

    So we can start with the sessions #1 21 November 1969 Record Plant

    (6-29) Lots of takes ranging from 0:05 seconds to 3:10

    (6-21) can best be found on Earth Tones

    There is a more recent boot in which all the takes are available in one place but I feel this was sourced from a collectors set!

    Sessions #2 16 January 1970 Record Plant

    (30-35) ranging from 0:03 false start through to a 6:42 take. All can be found on Ball and Chain

    (36) 21 January 1970, 3 February 1970 overdubs, 22 August 1970 [mixing]. Record Plant

    This is the track that is the basis for the version that appears on Crash Landing. 5:48. Can be found on Paper Airplanes.

    (37) Edit of previous. Intro is cut as is the first solo, filled by the first chorus. The second half of the first verse and bridge are also cut [completely]. Other edits and even a moved piece. 3:37 Official release on Crash Landing.

    (38) From December 1969 7:20, includes false start!

    (48-49) Again with Mitch, two takes dated 24 September 1969.0:45 and 3:25 respectively. Found on Soulful Sessions Vol 1.

    (50) This is the recording from which the edited version (37) on Crash Landing was taken. South Saturn Delta claims this to be complete it is in fact missing something like 0:30 seconds! It is also a different mix with heavy echo added to the guitars at the start. 5:20. Reference (36) for more complete and (56) for more complete and remixed version.

    (51-52 are simply mono mixes, alternate to (37), 3:46 and 0:51 respectively. The latter has 0:14 played backward! (51) can be found on Late Studio Sessions while (52) has yet to see even a bootleg issue!

    (55) Edited alt’ mix of (36). Missing the initial 10 seconds of guitar and shows various edits throughout.5:14. Can be found on Groove.

    (56) A more complete and remixed version of (50). Besides other small but interesting inclusions, we do get the missing half minute that was cut from (50), plus 15 seconds in the second verse. A different mix with the echo removed from the vocal and presented more forward as well as a different vocal take used in part of the second verse 5:57. This can be found on the B side of the vinyl 45, Somewhere (8) / Power Of Soul (56).

    (57) Upcoming release of Both Sides Of The Sky.21 January 1970 basic track, Record Plant. Overdubs again from RP, 3 February 1970. Mixed on the 22 August 1970 by Eddie Kramer and Jimi Hendrix. This is a new mix [new to us] of (36). The full and original take that begat the Crash Landing version.
  11. Gordon Johnson

    Gordon Johnson Forum Resident

    Liverpool, South
    Just checked From The Benjamin Franklin Studios, pt1; 4th edition.

    Here we have the following detail.
    7 May 1969 Record Plant.
    Jimi Guitar, Johnny Winter Slide Guitar, Stephen Stills Guitar, Billy Cox Bass, Buddy Miles Drums.

    Most of the variations can be found on Freakout Jam.
    The Beave, kees1954 and J.Lucas like this.
  12. DTK

    DTK Forum Resident

    And yet EH claim Dallas played drums on the track. Let's see what proof they have..

    Stephen Stills (and Johnny) played guitars with Jimi on the opening tracks of the session, but Stephen has said he (in a very drunken state) played bass on The Things I Used To Do; Billy must have sat that one out, then...I can't hear a third guitar on there; just Johnny on slide and Jimi on rhythm and lead (quite obviously attempting to imitate Guitar Slim's tone and phrasing on the original, hence the disjointed nature of the solo).
  13. kees1954

    kees1954 Forum Resident

    There was indeed a third guitar on the original recordings but it suffered terribly from a faltering chord to the amplifier. It gave an awful crackling noise which you can hear on older bootlegs. Fortunately they were able to filter it out in the present mix.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  14. kees1954

    kees1954 Forum Resident

    The occasion when Steve Stills played bass with Jimi and Johnny Winter happened on December 16, 1968 at the Scene. You can read about it in Ben Valkhoff's fabulous new book: One Last Experience(full of scoops!!!!!

    Purple Jim, Spadeygrove, DTK and 3 others like this.
  15. DTK

    DTK Forum Resident

    You're right! The quote from Stephen about being drunk was quoted in the recording entry for The Things I Used To Do in Electric Gypsy. It's an error by Caesar Glebbeek.
    kees1954 likes this.
  16. kees1954

    kees1954 Forum Resident

    I just learned on CTT that it's not Denise in the picture above but her friend Sandy who was going out with Noel at the time. Foxy ladies! I'm happy standing corrected.
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  17. dee

    dee Forum Resident

    ft. lauderdale, fl
    I'm glad I enjoy Hendrix and The Who discographies so much, and trying to get a handle on them, I've come to appreciate headaches so much more ;):)
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  18. Purple Jim

    Purple Jim Forum Resident

    Little Britain
    You can listen to that on the official site:
    Jimi Hendrix: Baggy's Rehearsal Bonus Sessions - December 1969 | The Official Jimi Hendrix Site
  19. You know, this reminds me of how Jimi's live shows went (for the most part). If he was able to get a good sound out of his rig, and he felt on top of his game, those seemed to be the best shows. On the other hand, if he got a crap sound, the venue's acoustics were crappy, and he had to fight the amps, those were generally the worst. These Baggy sessions didn't have the best, nor the worst sound, and the playing sort of falls in line with that. His guitar tone isn't as "round" as the Fillmore gigs, themselves, where Jimi seemed to really be feeling it.

    I always lamented the fact that Jimi never really had a proper guitar tech, and his monitors on stage was spotty. Imagine what he could have done with just a few year's advancements in stage sound.
  20. John Fell

    John Fell Forum Survivor

  21. Picture Snatcher

    Picture Snatcher Well-Known Member

    Interesting to hear them coming up with it. That to me is far more valuable and exciting than anything processed for this Both Side of the Same Coin
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  22. John Harchar

    John Harchar Forum Resident

    New Jersey
    Frustrating thing about the Baggy's cuts on the website is they're both just snippets, albeit long ones. The full version of Who Knows on the boots runs about 10 1/2 minutes. Would love to know if they ever did a full Machine Gun run through.
  23. DTK

    DTK Forum Resident

    The intro they rehearsed at Baggy's for Who Knows was used for their cover of Howard Tate's Stop instead at the Fillmore.
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  24. Deek57

    Deek57 Forum Resident

  25. John Harchar

    John Harchar Forum Resident

    New Jersey
    ...listens to it in his head...Oh yeah, that is the intro! A little slower but basically the same. Nice it didn't go to waste.
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