John Atkinson no longer editor of Stereophile.

Seemingly ...

 

I was being facetious in part. I believe one can enjoy SS of course, but I do not believe that SS amplifiers and low efficiency speakers are high end or "The Absolute Sound"

Thus if I were in charge of Stereophile there would be no SS amplifiers at any price that I would grade as a "Class A" product. I recommend SS amps mostly to people who need more features or don't want to deal with tubes.

People who are supposedly buying sound quality as the MAIN goal... well I don't think SS amps and LE speakers hit the mark.

Sure I like the Sugden A21a and the Pass Aleph and a number of other amps...but putting my anal audiophile hat on and not worrying about budgets I just don't think the stuff sounds good for the dollar versus a good tube amp for a lot less money. Slapping 6 figure prices on them doesn't impress me.

Edit: add. Put it this way. The Audio Note Meishue is a level 3 amplifier from Audio Note. I would rank it higher than any SS amplifier I have heard in the industry. And it's not my favourite from AN. The Jinro takes out the entire SS amplifier industry and it's not that close TBH. And it too is mere level 3.

 

Reading Atkinson's measurements in Stereophile is what led me down the path of being an audiophile, and demanding more from the music and hardware I was hearing. I always wondered how many reading Stereophile were skipping over his deeply technical sections, but they were always interesting to me.

 

Ahh, if I could only begin to afford Audio Note kit of any stripe, let alone Level 3.

 

The thing is nothing really sounds like a SET and certainly no SS amp sounds like a SET. So I am not like most reviewers who love every damn thing that comes my way. I believe there is a correct sound reproduction and if SET is it then Solid State isn't. Regardless of measured performance - the hearing has to come first. SET is better - and so amplifiers need to measure LIKE a SET if they are going to sound any damn good - and the funny thing is a lot of SS makers have come around to realizing this fact and so you see Nelson making first watt and other SS makers who are making lesser measurig products but now claim they are making a more "musical" sounding product. This is true - they are but it't their business. So they need to heat their swimming pools as well and they have sold 1000 watt SS for 2-3 decades they can't very well come out and admit "yeah SET amps sound much better" so no - now they all try and shoehorn some sort of no/low feedback into their SS amps to try and mimic SET - and this to me is a good goal - but they cost so much - at least tubes dissipate the heat and sure you have to replace the tubes when they go but a SS will suffer a meltdown when they go.

Unfortunately, Audio Note is expensive the OTO Silver Sig isn't exactly obscene - it's a lot of amp for the money and is SEP - it's cheaper to operate with longer lasting EL84 tubes. But AN isn't the only game in town - either - I just have more experience with them. There are a lot of other SET/Tube amp manufacturers out there. The main thing is to get a good design and output tube you like and that has enough power - preferably less power and that uses good reliable parts (and that are real - ahem be cautious of Chinese makers).

I should say because I can't edit my last post that there are SS amps I do think are excellent but cost prohibitive that they really don't apply to all of us living outside the top 0.1% Sure I like Analog Domain but half a million for monoblocks - so who cares if I like those. I also liked Technical Brain but they apparently have a 100% failure rate - with next to zero support or distribution and they get close to $100k. Acapella's integrated sounds good but also $100k . Ypsilon - hybrid - sounds goo - also $100k. And my ratings are based also on a cost benefit factor. I mean if I like a $7k tube amp the same as a $100k SS amp - then the latter may sound good but it's a pretty horrible value to me.

If you want to do tubes on the cheap - I have that. The KingKo KA 101 is $900 or so - then add an Audio Note M2 preamp. (I run the M3) and it sounds very good - the Empress Silver sounded much better but it's also 12 times more expensive. SO it bloody ought to be better.

I am saving for a Jinro myself - that is a final amplifier. It will take a few years - Although I will perhaps talk to the dealer about a second hand one. The crazies in China are so rich they are always upgrading to Ongakus and whatnot. I can somewhat justify the Jinro in that living in HK I do not need a car. Have not had a car for 8 years. So ....

 

Measurements are fine if they actually connect to the listening and they often never do - time and time and time again you will read something along this paraphrasing "the measurements show that there is some brightness - BUT the reviewer XY never mentioned an issue and stated that the treble was sublime..." and then the reviewer turns around and does not buy the absolute best measuring amplifier or speaker or source - but buys a bloody tube amplifier!

Then the guy who does by the 1000 watt SS amplifier and the better measuring speaker - Michael Fremer - turns around and claims Vinyl replay is VASTLY superior - well you can't have this crap both ways. If we're going to go measurements - you go all the way and turntables and vinyl are absurd second rate total rubbish CRAP compared to a $199 BluRay player playing CD! Vinyl measures worse that CD that tube amplifiers measure against SS amplifiers.

And Wes Philips who was another measurements first Stereophile writer hailed an Audio Note system as the best he ever auditioned - and this is SET amplifiers 25 watts - from bad measuring CD players into mediocre measuring speakers - but the point being that even the measurements reviewers were and are favouring the likes of SET and vinyl replay!

And then I come on forums where people say how important the Stereophile measurements are? Why? If they were so damn important why are the reviewers who spend hundreds of hours with this gear and have heard arguably far more gear than most posters - all NOT buying the absolute best measuring products? Virtually none of them are. With the exception of the reviewers who more or less are home theater reviewers where you pretty much HAVE TO buy SS amplification. So those reviewers are buying the preamp processors the home theater packages etc - but that's about it.

I would trust measurement arguments more but giving me Harman International white papers is kind of silly - this is a company selling you amplifiers, cd players, and loudspeakers - independent science? I mean it's like taking the science of a Tobacco company that tells you cigarrettes are perfectly safe and then posting their white papers to prove it because they paid off a few folks who have a PhD from MIT.

 

So much religion, so little fact.

 

It depends on the measurements.
Some ears might not be able to detect distortion or some might even prefer distortion, but, I would never buy a turntable with a very high wow and flutter that measures running in 33.1 rpm or in 33.6 rpm instead of 33.3. I would never buy an amp with a 2.5 dB channel imbalance.
Also I would never buy a dac that its linearity measures bad and the left channel performs significantly differently from the right channel, etc.

 

Amazing how people can pick nits to spin a thread into another direction.

JA successfully ran an audio porn magazine for a niche market for couple decades. Over that same time we watched printed press shrink and consolidate while Stereophile continues. Congratulations to him for his success, and for making the jump to the next stage where he can continue his passion for audio.
Good luck to JA and Stereophile.

 

You would be wrong, though.

 

I think he did a good job in bringing new technologies into the fold. However, I think there is too much content stuck on classical recordings and other esoteric audiophile music. A change may a be good bridge to bring in the next generation of listeners.

 

It sounds like we both think it is beneficial to use both - just to what degree..... for me my ears are always the first test, but I can't help but look at the data especially if I think I am hearing something stilted toward the high end, for example. There is a lot of equipment I have listened to and will never look at the data because of the reputation and it just sounds right to me.

But for me, it is always interesting that when I hear differences between two pieces that the data usually bears out what I am hearing --- especially with things like headphones and speakers.

But most importantly, the data helps me target the right products - which is especially valuable in today's internet model where it's tough to audition before you buy. Example - headphones. I know I like my headphones with a more "neutral / natural" sound signature (I own the DT880 and Senn600HD) - and don't like headphones with the heavy V-shaped sound signature. Knowing this it helps me weed through the obvious ones not to try and helps me target which ones I like best. Without this valuable data it would be a crap shoot and all headphones would be in play.

Then, and what gives credence to the measurement - the correlation to headphones I like and the sound signature is strongly related --- so the data usually bears out what I am hearing. So the data is very valuable to me there.

 

Now might be an interesting time to bring up Olive and Toole. Especially Olive, I suppose, as he is in charge of testing @ JBL.

They (JBL) have developed some pretty good models for predicting how a speaker will perform in double blind listening tests, based entirely on how a speaker measures. The models are not perfect, but they're very accurate.

I wonder how the glass + high efficiency systems would do if compared to SS + lower efficiency speakers (that model well), in double blind tests.

It is really a curiosity for me more than anything else, I don't have any experience with tubes and my experience with speakers like Klipsch is extremely limited. I do look at speakers like the Klipsch Heresy and as someone that builds speakers I do understand that the performance could exceed the sum of the parts. For example, floor placement (as they're often used) will reinforce bass, and the sealed woofer rolls off very gradually (compared to ported). The horns are likely more tolerant of poor placement than (for example) a small dome or cone, too. It is entirely possible that the little Heresy is extremely room friendly and as a result will easily outperform poorly setup speakers that are much more picky about placement.

I think issues like those are often lost on people obsessed with a standard array of measurements.

One of these days I need to find a tube amp I can try out with my satellites (160-Hz on up).

 

I do agree that the degree of resolution that a manufacturer will provide is the one that will make their product appear best.

Most of my comments were directed to measurements which are made in review's.

About the only graph I look at is to see where the -3 dB. point is on a speaker cabinet and how the slope drops.

For example, some speaker's will measure the HF limit to say 20-kHz or 40-kHz.

Who cares? Producing HF sound is not exactly rocket science. I'm confident that the HF response above 20-kHz is not a major concern to me, since I am not a bat. Further, at sixty four, my HF response if limited above 14-kHz.

I never really cared about that last octave, even back when I was twenty.

 

Agreed about this thread shifting into another direction. It would be a boring world if we all submitted to the claims that certain things (tubes, vinyl, Audio Note etc.) are undeniably superior.

Congratulations and good luck to JA, we all (well, many of us anyway) wish we had your job.

 

Then, by and through sifting through stats and graphs, we can assume that you now have the perfect audio system?

Or maybe, better than you think.

 

There is no reason to be mean....

 

Ironically, it is those who claim that tubes, vinyl and Audio Note are superior are also the ones who dismiss the value of measurements. There are clearly vested and financial interests at stake.

Measurements can tell you whether your hearing is good or bad. Many self-described "audiophiles" (an arrogant term that I hate) spend a fortune on kits, accessories and tweaks but don't have a clue how good their hearing is. No wonder there are many rich charlatans in the hifi industry!

 

Not being mean, just because something doesn't "measure" to somebody's standards and yet it still sounds good or even outstanding, doesn't mean that the "problem" is with someone's hearing.

My position is firmly in the camp of measurements simply do not tell you anything about how something sounds or how it will preform in the real world.

My point, with regard to your system is simple. You look through equipment, find the gear that has all flat line response, you then purchase that gear and, voila, you have just assembled the system that has "perfect" sound.

Sounds simple to me.

I can't even begin to imagine how my system must "measure", but then, I don't care a bit.

 

Bingo. Measurements and specs help narrow the field and help make an informed purchase, or at the very least help decide what to audition.

And yeah, it's true that not all measurements (particularly from factory spec) can be trusted 100%. Recently I saw some factory specs for a particular piece of equipment that put my B.S. detector on high alert. I would love to know if those measurements can be duplicated by a third party and if they reflect realistic performance of that piece of gear under real world conditions. I could also be wrong and perhaps this company figured out how to revolutionize this type of product.

 

I usually read the measurements section first with every Stereophile review. With speaker reviews it's a definite. I like to see how close the manufacturer's specs come to JA's.

On the other hand, I have owned, and enjoyed pieces that did not measure all that well.

 

Not pompous. Still, understanding valid and useful measurements can help weed out some components that are unlikely to meet a certain standard expected by someone. That leaves the person with a list of components to audition, and nothing can take the place of a soundroom audition at a dealer except an audition at home.

 

There is no doubt --- for years everyone complained about how the AVR / amp manufacturers were misrepresenting and bloating their wattage claims. They still do.

But that actually reinforces how important the data / measures are --- they bloated them because they know people read them and hold them as an important factor in buying. But the fact they are able to outright "lie" about them is the real problem here.

To me that is where the real value-add of the pro reviewers could help (a topic germane to this thread) - they (pro reviewers) could (and some do) provide that independent third party testing / measurements to keep the industry and manufacturers honest. But unfortunately all most pro reviews do is give positive reviews, wrought with flowery statements and rarely give any negatives or comparisons. That is why manufacturers can misrepresent their claims - because they know there is no accountability, no checks or balances and that most of the internet and reviewers are really just an extension of their sales and marketing departments. Then we wonder why the audio industry is struggling.

 

Yep...it seems things have been taken over by the "cork sniffers". We need balance here. Comparable measurements, real-world performance stress tests, and then give us the subjective opinions. Unfortunately right now we mostly get the latter only, typically written by older men with significant high frequency hearing loss.

 

I do that as well however the two go hand in hand. Measurements alone can't tell us how something sounds. Measurements can help explain why something sounds the way it does. Stereophile is a good at balancing both.

If they want to measure more, I like @Ralph Karsten's suggestion that they could include separate measurements of even and odd order harmonic distortions in the distortion measurements. We tolerate even order harmonics at much higher doses then odd order.
It also might allow the readers to figure out where they fit in the amount of even order that they prefer. For example, one may like 0.3% of even order while not tolerating 0.003% of odd order. I don't know. I might even be one of them.