Joker - 2019 Film*

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by neo123, Aug 22, 2017.

  1. balzac

    balzac Forum Resident

    The cynical explanation would be that currently “Joker” is closing in on $900 million worldwide box office.

    If it had been called “Fleck” about some dude named Arthur Fleck, and you removed the (relative) scant DC references completely, it would be closing in right now on about $10 million worldwide box office (similar to “You Were Never Really Here”, which made about $9.4 million worldwide).

    *I’d* like the film as much (or nearly as much). But that’s why it isn’t an indie film about a random guy.

    To be fair, there is no evidence that Todd Phillips took some pre-existing indie script and “Joker-ized” it just enough to make it tie into the IP. I think Phillips was genuinely interested in doing a “Joker” movie specifically, but, like many folks (including some viewers and to varying degrees even Tim Burton and Christopher Nolan), he didn’t have more than a passing interest in the actual comic books and just liked the idea of using some key sign posts and elements from the skeleton of the stories/character.

    Which is fine. DC and Warner have obviously done alternatively brilliant, awful, and accidentally brilliant work on all of these DC films. But I wouldn’t fault DC and WB for being frustrated with how some fan reactions completely contradict each other. Folks scoff at DC not being able to stand up to Marvel films. Then then do Marvel-like films and some criticize them (e.g. “Aquaman” and “Wonder Woman” to varying degrees). Then they completely subvert anything to do with an “MCU” film with “Joker” yet do MCU-level box office, and some say they should have just made it an indie film with DC tie in. Reminds me of that one Simpsons episode (to be clear, I'm not saying anybody is stupid; rather, I can see why DC and WB would be confused by conflicting fan desires):

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Chrome_Head

    Chrome_Head Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA.
    The way Phillips tells it, he was promoting one of his Hangover movies when he saw a big billboard advertising a comic flick (he didn't say which one but it may have been DC's Suicide Squad), and decided, if those were the types of movies garnering all the attention nowadays, he would try his hand at one. It may have dovetailed with a reworking of some Scorsese-esque themes he had in mind already.

    As for Nolan only having a passing interest in the actual comics, I thought both he and his brother (Dark Knight screenwriter) Jonah were quite big fans of the comic at least at some point.
     
  3. balzac

    balzac Forum Resident

    I can't profess to know a ton about what Nolan knew or liked about the comics. I just recall getting the impression from interviews with Nolan that he leaned much more towards "passing interest" than being a comic book aficionado. He certainly must have appreciated some element of them, or of story elements. But I don't think any time in his recent adult hood he was like a regular reader of comics.

    As I've said in the past, I think it's quite interesting that some of the best Batman adaptations have been done by filmmakers with less interest in actual comic books (Tim "I didn't like reading comics because I couldn't figure out what order to read the boxes in" Burton, Nolan, Phillips).
     
  4. Chrome_Head

    Chrome_Head Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA.
    I have to think Nolan is downplaying his fandom a bit, either in a very British way, or to create a sense of remove between filmmaker and film. He actively pitched what became Batman Begins and got the job while still being a relative unknown entity outside of the low-budget Memento. Maybe it was his brother or the other writer David Goyer that was the real comic book geek.

    But there was a lot of care taken in the Dark Knight trilogy to match certain details established in the comics that the studio execs or lesser directors would likely ignore.
     
  5. I watched the movie yesterday. Well acted and directed, but I was disappointed that the story employed one of my least favorite tropes:
    The unreliable narrator
    This really lessened my enjoyment considerably.
     
  6. JCM

    JCM Forum Resident

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
     
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  7. Dhreview16

    Dhreview16 Forum Resident

    Location:
    London UK
    Very glad I saw it. One of the best movies of the year in my view. Phoenix was terrific, some great shots of NYC. Although I think it’s supposed to be set in the early 80s it’s a story for present times. Challenging, but interesting.
     
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  8. Chrome_Head

    Chrome_Head Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA.
    Have to say, it shows in Nolan’s films. I believe it was O’Neil while writing the comics who came up with the idea of a man named Ducard who trained Bruce very early on. Nolan was able to twist that into Ducard (Liam Niesen) actually being Ra’s Al Ghoul in the film, neatly tying together two characters and plots, though that isn’t how the comics exactly went.

    We were lucky to have a writer/director like Nolan doing Batman at that time. I doubt there’d be a Joker movie to discuss nowadays had he not been. Or at least not one as good as we got.
     
  9. JCM

    JCM Forum Resident

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    I don't know how I stumbled across this, but, it has to be the coolest video I've watched about JOKER. Namely because you get the films' principle star, Joaquin Phoenix, discussing his role, the film, etc – with two of his sisters.

    This may not be for everyone. It appears to be completely unedited but fun in a seemingly spontaneous, genuine way. I haven't made it through the whole video but I believe they also discuss their late brother (River Phoenix) as well as their individual artistic endeavors.

     
  10. neo123

    neo123 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Northern Kentucky
  11. davebush

    davebush New Test Leper

    Location:
    St. Catharines, ON
    A rare trip to a theater at my daughter’s request. Quick review - loved the tone and unrelenting bleakness, but did not care for the completely obvious narrative. A spoon-fed stream of dots that the director connected for me, continually.
     
  12. JCM

    JCM Forum Resident

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Can someone explain to me why some Marvel fans hate DC and vice versa? I mean, I read some people say that this pains them greatly because JOKER reached this level of success. Why would anyone care?

    I don't understand the two "camps"; I do know that JOKER is a tremendous film and I'm not sure I've seen a Marvel film I would ascribe that adjective to.
     
  13. Pretty much my take as well. I liked it, but would've liked it more if the narrative were less on the nose - as exemplified by the rant on the Murray Franklin show - and the steals from Scorsese less obvious. Still, while its not on the level of the films it borrows from, it's nice to see a film not obviously pitched to a mass audience and with a few sharp edges doing so well.
     
  14. Oatsdad

    Oatsdad Oat, Biscuits and Abbie: Best Dogs Ever

    Location:
    Alexandria VA
    When I was a comics fan in my teens, I was a comics fan - not a DC fan or a Marvel fan. I read everything I could get from both!

    So yeah - I have no idea why there are apparently fanboy tribes that only dig one and not the other.

    Kinda smells like the "Star Wars"/"Star Trek" divide - I like both of those, too! :D
     
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  15. FredV

    FredV Forum Resident

     
  16. Oatsdad

    Oatsdad Oat, Biscuits and Abbie: Best Dogs Ever

    Location:
    Alexandria VA
    "Trek" is nerdier - that's a proven fact! :D
     
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  17. vince

    vince Stan Ricker's son-in-law

    This podcast used to be hosted by Rain & Moon Zappa!....
    Didn't know they had video now....and, I guess, Moon's no longer the co-host!
    I'll never forget the interview they did with Laurie Anderson, in which Moon reveals Frank's last words!
     
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  18. Chazro

    Chazro Forum Resident

    Location:
    West Palm Bch, Fl.
    Good movie
    Great performance
    But being a lifelong Batman fan I think it's overall impact, the movie's 'place' within the Batman legend is minimal at best. Its an amazing Joaquin Phoenix movie, but a so-so Batman feature.
     
  19. GodShifter

    GodShifter Forum Hot Take Resident®

    Location:
    Dallas, TX, USA
    Because many comic fans who grew up in the 70's & 80's liked one or the other, but rarely both. I was a Marvel fan and had zero interest in DC. I thought the DC characters (other than Batman) were kind of dumb and thought Marvel's were better named and better thought out. There was definitely a division back in the day so I'd imagine anyone that's not happy about the success of 'Joker' is an old comic fan that still holds onto that divide that was in 70's and 80's. That's my best guess.
     
  20. StillTripping6769

    StillTripping6769 Active Member

    Location:
    Indianapolis, Ind.
    I gather you were at a seance, then, because Archie Goodwin died in 1998.
     
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  21. Dreadnought

    Dreadnought Drugged on alien medicine

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I read the last three pages of this thread and brilliant commentary. I can't add much to any of it but I must say I loved the movie, having watched it just today. I don't think I spent much time critiquing the film objectively while watching as I was drawn right into the story and acting. I did sit back and contemplate the camerawork a number of times. I can't imagine a sequel but then I couldn't imagine a serious alternative to Heath Ledger's character either. I can imagine another one-off villain origin though were it done with such integrity. I do hope there is an Oscar or two for Joker and most importantly for acting.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
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  22. radickeyfan

    radickeyfan Forum Resident

    thanks, it was Walt Simonson
     
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  23. radickeyfan

    radickeyfan Forum Resident

    maybe i was stilltripping when i typed this ---thanks again
     
  24. Chrome_Head

    Chrome_Head Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA.
    I grew up reading Marvel and Spider-Man, mainly. Spider-Man had always been my favorite character. Then I was taken to see the Tim Burton Batman film at age 9 or 10 and was blown away by it, and began reading every Batman comic I could get my hands on. I started reading during the great Alan Grant / Norm Breyfogle era of Batman & Detective Comics, and that certainly informed my idea of who the character was in the comics world.
     
  25. Chazro

    Chazro Forum Resident

    Location:
    West Palm Bch, Fl.
    Not only did I not choose between the big 2 (why would I?) But I'd also support Dell, Charlton, Tower, Atlas, Image, Pacific, Archie, and so many other companies. Choosing one over the other never made sense to me! It would be like choosing one record label or tv station above all others!
     
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