What happened to Sophie is an unanswered plot hole that can be used in a sequel. Nobody can say, for certain, that she did not get killed.
I don't know if the age difference would be that big a deal - I assume Bruce Wayne here is about 10 and Joker around mid-30s, which could give us a sequel with a mid/late-30s Batman and a 60-ish Joker, which could work. Assuming they didn't fudge it somehow, of course...
This movie is the quintessential “unreliable narrator” story. Some, or none of this film could be “real” or have actually occurred in reality. The fact that Fleck appears in every scene lends even more credence to this possibility. For me, Fleck was/is in Arkham Asylum the entire movie, and we are seeing glimpses in to his psychoses, and madness. And if this were to be the “Joker” character going forward, I would be beyond disappointed and have zero intention of watching it again. However, as Dee Cee Comix and The WHarner Bro’s. have had their posteriors handed to them at the box office (by Marvel & Sony), and by the critics (and virtually everyone), I’m sure they are ecstatic at Phoenix’s win. Which in my sole opinion was unwarranted. Last two things I will say: 1. Ledger’s Joker is far superior to Phoenix’s. To predicate that these two represent the same character is insulting, and a tremendous disservice. 2. To all of the filmmakers out there who want to win an Oscar, just mash up two great films, e.g., Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy, and at worst create an Oscar buzz. If not a win in a major category.
Two very different takes, both tremendous, IMO. And Phoenix's isn't meant to be an early version of Ledger's Joker (doesn't work with the continuity established by Nolan's films) anyway, so I don't think anyone thinks this is "the same character". This is a very reductive view of what the filmmakers accomplished, but regardless, Phillips and co. thought of mashing up Scorcese's movies with the comic character in this way first. And Scorcese was on board with it. So they deserve the accolades.
Not 100% - he's not in the scene where the Waynes get killed! Apples/oranges - 2 different characters with different purposes. Also, Ledger is onscreen waaaay less then Phoenix. Not fair to compare. I love Ledger's performance - he's the definitive "Batman's enemy Joker" - but Fleck is too different to make sense as a comparison, IMO...
There is precedence with a kind of age difference, mainly because of Keaton/Nicholson. Jack was 14 years older than Keaton. And Romero was 21 years older than West on the TV series. Then there's the Bale series, where Bale's actually five years older than Ledger! Leto is only a year older than Affleck in the more recent live-action usage of the characters. So it's fluid. But in general, there's a tendency to have the 2 fairly close in age - maybe Joker being 5-10 years older. The 25-30 years required to make Fleck the Joker really pushes it!
How is that a "plot hole"? They don't show anything bad happen to her, and they don't even vaguely imply it. It's safe to assume Fleck left her alone. The movie gives us zero reason to believe otherwise, so the fact they don't show her alive at the end doesn't turn into a plot hole...
You’re right. Nothing happened. Sophie’s fine. Edit: actually, she didn’t exist at all because the whole movie is Arthur’s thoughts while he’s in a straightjacket in Arkham.
Make dismissive, snarky comments if you want, but you've not come up with any reason to believe otherwise. You misuse the term "plot hole" and then somehow infer that the character's dead because the movie doesn't tell us she's not. Seriously?
Not really my type of movie but I was intrigued by best lead actor win. I am certain someone (probably younger person) will use this as inspiration in the next mass murder. Too many times the film makes it "cool" to be antisocial or psychotic, I'm almost regretting seeing it already. It's sort of a no win scenario; censorship will outrage people that are upset by "cancel culture", or make something like this that is surely going to cause some real societal detriment. Interestingly one of my partners wasn't too thrilled with this either, but I didn't want to discuss it with him in detail in case I ever saw it, I think I completely understand where he is coming from.
A nut job is a nut job. I mean you could be inspiured by all the Noir films of the 1950s or gangter films from any decade. Sick gonna be sick. I think this film shows more the danger of the lifeline that has been cut off for Americans in need since the early 1980s. All the treatment programs have had funding slashed for crazy people and druggies so they are out on the streets now and/or without any real help..
That's the point this film was really trying to drive home, IMO. We are meant to emphasize with Fleck up to a certain extent before he becomes too far gone. I actually still can't believe this movie got made.
My specific issue is how the film glorifies his psychosis or schizoaffective disorder, I completely agree with you on what you've said about the issues with funding for psychiatric services. It's a recurring theme- De Niro, tells him there is something very wrong with him and society is fine; doubling down on anyone that might already be feeling this way that yes it is society that are the ones against them. This is extended by De Niro's character being a real smug prick which further drives home the point to people watching this that might have already been feeling down. And at the end of the film there is a large circle of people five rows deep or so that are chanting and celebrating him. The camera isn't zoomed in on just the Joker when he is standing on the hood of the car, for a long time the camera is outside circling around his supporters. I get what you're saying about all those other types of films, but I don't think there is anything else remotely like this that combines everything I've written above. I think Josquin could have nailed a film playing someone with schizoaffective disorder without having to glorify it (IMHO it would have been much more interesting for me). I'm sure it would have been a best lead actor win as well. What it wouldn't have been is a half billion dollar cash cow (and will surely spawn future films like this, as many people have identified with him) or something that most people would have seen. And regarding "nut jobs" being nut jobs go read forums where the average demographic is much younger and presumably not as affluent, you'll see loads of people saying they feel like and can relate to him. One more light hearted discussion point- I wasn't entirely clear on the thing about his laughing- was that something his mother made up as a psychiatric illness for him (ie self diagnosed)? Any psychologists/psychiatrists here know if that is a real condition? I've read of some real bizarre ones like folie a deux (one psychotic person convincing someone with no psychosis that what they are imaging is real and that person starts believing it as well) but never heard of anything like this. The closest I can think of is maybe Tourette's syndrome or chronic tic disorder.
Sort of! From the man himself: Joaquin Phoenix Says He Based His ‘Joker’ Laugh on a Little-Understood Real-Life Ailment Pseudobulbar affect - Symptoms and causes
Congrats to Joaquin. I already congratulated him on reddit, and then I deleted the account. My deep state fanbase will recall that I predicted the future with that account. No Dudley, that’s not a cue for you and Nurse Ratchet to ready the meds. The ‘Joker dance’ was appropriated from ‘the night of the magnificent dance,’ in 2017 — Bob remembers that. Hollywood perused me for a number of years in my own neighborhood. Zazie Beetz doesn’t think ‘Joker 2’ would be necessary: Zazie Beetz Doesn't Think ‘Joker 2’ Is Necessary, But Is Open to the Idea You know, this whole thread could be an inspiration for Bob to write “Soon After Midnight 2.” All of the lovely ladies that I mentioned on this thread, who suffer from depression, need not fear me. I’m some dude on the internet who is actually a nice person. I’m just saying that all of those ladies, and Abe Lincoln and me should not be included on a list of bad people. Depression is one thing, murder is another thing altogether. “Soon After Midnight” is really a story of a love octagon: where Bob is the murderer, and I’m the one he kills. You know, I don't mind him cheatin' on me, but I Sure wish he'd take that off his head Your brand new leopard-skin pill-box hat Keith Richards and Bob Dylan still can’t stop reading me on the internet.
Go ask some people on the expect-rain site if you don’t believe me. They were probably handing out maps to my old place in private messages. This stuff is well known. Yeah, so “who’s ever heard of him” doesn’t apply anymore. Hollywood literally stalked me in my backyard for a number of years. I hold nothing against Hollywood, and I love them. Some would say that’s like Stockholm Syndrome or something. I don’t begrudge Hollywood. We all had to learn some stuff in this lifetime. I can teach Hollywood, and they can teach me.
But these two Jokers are so different. What's even the point to compare? And since when does a comic book character (or any character for that matter) warrant one interpretation only?
I’ll just say this is an idea for a movie script, so people don’t think that I’m too nuts. I’m not having a nervous breakdown, just so everybody knows that. I have a unique personality. I write differently that a lot of other people do. Readers might think my writing is different. But I want you to know that ‘different’ doesn’t mean ‘bad.’ I’m a safe person. I’m nice. You don’t have to worry about me. Here’s an idea for a possible ‘Joker’ HBO series: a famous person from Hollywood buys a house near the main character’s house. I’ll call the main character “the dude.” So, the dude realizes one day that his neighbor’s house has a window with a perfect view of the dude’s backyard and the dude’s kitchen window. But the dude had never seen anyone in this one window of his neighbor’s house before, even when his neighbor’s house was owned by other people. The window was in the back part of his neighbor’s house, and the dude thought that it might be a storage area or something in his neighbor’s house. He had never really thought much about that one window in his neighbor’s house before, until the new owners moved in. The dude attends a concert one night, by his favorite artist. He buys what he thinks are good dabs from a local dealer. He’s in a rush to drive to the show. He gets there just in time, and takes a couple hits off the dab pen before he goes into the venue. He starts feeling strange, and thinks that having a few beers might help, even though he hadn’t drank for a year and a half before that night. Long story short: the dude’s favorite artist takes the stage, and the dude breaks out into what he’s hoping is a cheerful dance. Let’s just call it “the night of the magnificent dance.” The dude dances the night away, without even realizing that he was probably on glue or something. Evil people are called to the drug trade. In the light of day, when he has more time to examine the dabs, the dude figures out that the dabs are bad. He learns the lesson to never trust bad people who are free to sell bad drugs, in a newly legalized industry with no regulation. Terrible people have tried to poison the dude before. The dude is lucky to have not taken a lot of bad hits over the years, because he figures out that stuff is bad. But sometimes, when he trusted the wrong people, he took a bad hit or two, here and there, over the years. He’s known a lot of other people who had similar experiences. Just about everybody of a certain age, who enjoys getting baked, has gotten something bad before, that they had to throw away. But because of this newly legalized industry with no regulation, things actually seem to be getting worse than they were before legalization. The dude hears horror stories about people having to go to hospitals because they kept taking hits from bad dab carts. He hears stories about evil people actually painting buds to make them look purple, and then others didn’t know before they started smoking it, and it smelled like paint, and turned the papers purple. These are bad times, with a lot of bad people around, and they’re doing it out in the open now because there’s no regulation. Back to that window at the neighbor’s house: When the dude is home after the concert, for several days in a row, he notices more activity in that one window, which he hadn't seen before. He realizes somebody could have been in that window the whole time, but he hadn’t noticed before because the lights were always out, in what he thought was just a storage area in his neighbor’s house. The dude remembers how he met the wife of the person living in that house when they first moved in. She was a very nice person, and she also told the dude that her husband had connections to Hollywood. Strange things start happening on the TV. One night Snoop Dog and Matthew Mcconaughey are on the Jimmy Kimmel show, and Mcconaughey mentions something about ‘the guy in Bob Dylan’s songs, who goes around with a thing on his lip.’ He said something like that, but the dude can’t remember exactly what he said, probably because the dude has done too many substances (and let that be a warning for any younger people who might be reading along, don’t do drugs, and stay in school). Anyway, the dude has a scar on his lip. Isn’t it strange that Mcconaughey would say that? That’s just one example of weird stuff that started happening on TV. The dude could go on and on with more examples. The dude eventually realizes that he’s being gaslit by Hollywood. The dude stops watching TV. Is this getting boring? I read somewhere that the original ‘Joker’ movie screenplay was about a story of redemption. It was supposed to be a good story, evidentially. Sometimes directors have different visions for screenplays. In this idea I have for the ‘Joker’ HBO Series, I would have the dude cast as the culture hero, and a good guy. The dude is the protagonist in this vision. He never does anything bad to anyone, even though people have tried to systematically drive him over the edge, by gaslighting him to change his view of reality. But the dude is too good for all of that. He remains a nice person, despite his years long ordeal of being gaslit by Hollywood. Also, I want to apologize to Steve for any drug references in this post. I’m trying to say it in a way that would discourage people from ever trying substances, that you have no idea what it actually is. Even Keith Richards did something with strychnine in it once. Even Keith, being the ultimate seasoned veteran, was fooled by an evil person. I’m saying, say no to drugs. God can still use me as a bad example. And that’s not a religious statement, that’s spiritual. I always say 21+ only. So, this is not supposed to be a pro-drug post at all. Hopefully that’s ok for the censors.
If I were ever banned in the middle of the night, like, if the mods accidentally pressed the button or something, I would feel bad about having left this thread in a state of disarray. Bob Dylan is not literally a murderer. I wasn’t trying to say that he is. I’ve been writing letters to the stars for eighteen years now on the internet. Everything I was talking about, concerning “Soon After Midnight,” and other stuff on this thread, has to do with my history and interactions on the internet. Are we writing love letters or breakup letters to our favorite stars? I want all posters to ask themselves that question right now. Btw if you’re ever seeing context in my posts that is hard to grasp, yes, I was diagnosed with Lyme disease last year, and yes, my writing is influenced by interactions with the stars, over many years time online... Just so Dudley knows, it might be the Lyme....Take your pick of what you think this is. I wonder if Bob will ever play AATW again, because maybe the ‘Joker’ movie has a bigger cultural significance now than that song. Dare I even say it...You don’t have to kill me anymore.
Agreed. The candidates weren't great this year. I do think Phoenix was good in his role, though. My personal choice would have been Adam Driver in Marriage Story. The others I won't even bother discussing.
See How Johnny Depp Could Look As The Joker In 'Fantastic' Transformation Didn’t Johnny Depp take a bad hit with Hunter S. Thompson? Didn’t somebody drop off a pipe with some resin in it, and they didn’t know what it was? A lot of people won’t admit to having taken a bad hit, but there are more than a few of us out there, walking around in the general population. I can appear to be pretty normal most of the tine. Maybe I’m like some witch that people want to burn? Imagine if there was this big club, and they were kind out to get you, and you didn’t know if they could do stuff like the real mob does: because these guys all act like they’re in the mob. You have to be at least pretty interesting to have been stalked by Bob Dylan. I always took it as a compliment. I don’t have any regrets. They can talk about me plenty when I’m gone. I always thought Hollywood was saying that I’m as interesting as they are. People cross lines, then we have to ask ourselves who the real villains really are sometimes. The Hollywood crowd took some liberties with my life. Some people feel that they can parlay their own spirituality, in a sense, to wield a karmic sword in their actions. You have to have a strong constitution to do that. Some people think I’m the bad guy. I think other people are the bad guy. The internet conspiracy is that I’m “Slim,” and I’m slayed by Bob. The whole thing puts me in a position where I feel like I need to defend myself, and it all becomes a sort of abstract threat at level 10. I was probably at a level 3 in my own actions. I’m up by 7 now, and I really did used to watch too much tv. I’m way more productive now without the tv running all the time. Ask Robbie Robertson how to be clairvoyant. Bob has been known to write with the tv on.
I watched this yesterday. Great cinematography and acting but any film that explicitly spells out the moral for the viewers, by having the protagonist tell them what it is, can’t be that good of a film. That said, it’s definitely my favourite film set in the Batman universe, even though he’d have never got out that fridge.
I'm dumbfounded at all the praise this movie got and gets. It's just another origin story that, for some reason, people have taken more seriously than its due. If you're into origin stories - personally I'm tired of them because they all follow the same arc - then it's one of many, some good some bad. Character development was standard fare, and performances were good, but not out of this world. Still, the consensus seems to be this is something special, so what would I know?
