Joy Division's Next Album

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by thnkgreen, May 23, 2020.

  1. thnkgreen

    thnkgreen Discography Junkie and Jazz Addict Thread Starter

    Location:
    Winston-Salem, NC
    I have really enjoyed reading the responses from my other thread 'Nirvana's Next Album' which got me thinking about another one of my favorite bands, Joy Division. Until now I have never even considered the similarities between Kurt and Ian Curtis but the more I think about it, they do exist. Being the 40th anniversary of his death, I was wondering what Joy Division's next album might have sounded like. Wasn't 'Ceremony' supposed to be a contender for the next album? Can't remember. Anyone else have thoughts on the topic?
     
    905, peskypesky and Dodoz like this.
  2. Pop_Zeus

    Pop_Zeus Forum Resident

    Location:
    Southport, UK
    I suppose there's a good chance that Ceremony and In A Lonely Place could've been on it, yes. I don't think there is much else to say, Closer was already recorded when Ian took his life, they did these two songs at rehearsals, March to May 1980 and sadly that was it.
     
  3. thnkgreen

    thnkgreen Discography Junkie and Jazz Addict Thread Starter

    Location:
    Winston-Salem, NC
    It's been a while since I listened to it, but the first New Order album.... I remember my initial reaction was a huge letdown. I've always wondered if Joy Division would have gone in the same synth direction that New Order did. I have the feeling that Ian would have wanted a harder edge, considering the punk roots the JD came from.
     
  4. Dodoz

    Dodoz Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    That first New Order album is still very Joy Division-like though, isn't it? Like Joy Division without a spark :( (even if there are some good songs/ideas).
     
    Echo likes this.
  5. thnkgreen

    thnkgreen Discography Junkie and Jazz Addict Thread Starter

    Location:
    Winston-Salem, NC
    I'm definitely going to have to listen to it again. I think my first go around, I was underwhelmed by Bernard's voice
     
    Dave Decadent likes this.
  6. Dodoz

    Dodoz Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    He's one of the lamest singers I can think of, really...I don't like him much as a vocalist.

    He had not found his, ahem, voice yet on that album though.

     
  7. thnkgreen

    thnkgreen Discography Junkie and Jazz Addict Thread Starter

    Location:
    Winston-Salem, NC
    In an alternate universe, I imagine Ian, instead of hanging himself just telling the others "mates, I'm not going to the States." I wonder what the reaction would have been..... new singer?
     
  8. craigobau

    craigobau Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, England
    From the deluxe version of the first New Order album;

     
    nosliw, Luisboa and MikeManaic61 like this.
  9. andy obrien

    andy obrien Forum Resident

    Location:
    watford
    That's Hooky on vocals for Dreams Never End, though there's not much to tell him apart from Bernard to be honest. Maybe they should have got a new singer in, and do a Back In Black? If so who would have been considered? They seemed to be a very insular band.
     
    NunoBento and Dodoz like this.
  10. Mumdad

    Mumdad Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Peter Hook sings the lead vocal on that track (and on 'Doubts Even Here').

    I used to not think much of Movement since it sounds a bit too 'inbetween' the two bands but I've grown to like it much more over the years.

    One thing I always found a bit eerie about 'Ceremony' is that Ian Curtis doesn't sound right singing it to me on the versions that exist. I'm sure it wasn't the case but it's weird that it almost sounds like it was written to be sung by someone with a different vocal register.
     
    NunoBento and Dodoz like this.
  11. andy obrien

    andy obrien Forum Resident

    Location:
    watford
    I said something similar. Maybe a new singer would have been a good idea? Bono was very much in thrall of Ian at the time, he's quoted as saying to Tony Wilson "I was always the number two, but he was the best. But you know, I'll do it anyway. Now he's gone." Can ANYONE here conceive of Bongo filling Ian's shoes!?!
     
    TheGoodDoctor likes this.
  12. ghoulsurgery

    ghoulsurgery House Ghost

    Location:
    New Jersey
    You’re covering all my favorite bands! :)
    I really think at least the next two Joy Division LPs would’ve been very similar to the first couple New Order records. Movement likely would’ve had more focus, but musically they headed in the direction they were already going. Ian was a fan of electronics, and plenty of early New Order songs have vocal melodies that I think sound straight from Ian Curtis (“Blue Monday” especially).
     
    Mumdad likes this.
  13. andy obrien

    andy obrien Forum Resident

    Location:
    watford
    I know what you mean about Ceremony but I often think that about Curtis' voice, like he's deliberately singing slightly below/away from the song's key to create a cold detached sound?
     
    4011021 likes this.
  14. Dodoz

    Dodoz Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    Gee, I forgot that! That would explain why I like it better then. lol.
    Is Bernard the higher octave voice in the background though?
     
  15. ghoulsurgery

    ghoulsurgery House Ghost

    Location:
    New Jersey
    If Joy Division had properly recorded “Ceremony”, I think it would’ve been their best work. I hate that it didn’t happen.
     
  16. Luisboa

    Luisboa Forum Resident

    Location:
    Coimbra, Portugal
    If Joy Division had a 3rd album imo Closer would not have been what it was. Closer is a work of a man knowing he was reaching (perhaps searching) the end, not the work of a man whos gonna make another album. Even the album title sugests he somehow had the "idea" in this mind all the time.
    I dont know the mind of a suicidal person so feel free to contradict me, but this is my opinion consedering the lyrics and thematics of Closer (cover and title included). For a third album to exist Closer would have not existed in the way we know it.
     
    Jarra Lad, gja586, 4011021 and 5 others like this.
  17. Dodoz

    Dodoz Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    His Belgian (girl)friend apparently approached someone, was it the band's manager? because she was very concerned about the lyrics and Ian's state of mind. All she heard was basically "no...it's just for the art, it's his art!".

    As for his bandmates, apparently they only realized the contents of the lyrics once Ian was dead. They didn't really pay that much attention to them, it was his thing. It's very sad.
     
    Luisboa and ghoulsurgery like this.
  18. ghoulsurgery

    ghoulsurgery House Ghost

    Location:
    New Jersey
    I think Closer would’ve sounded like that no matter what, given everything that was happening in his life. I’d like to think, if he made it through those tough times, he could’ve turned a corner and found happiness either with Annik or some other way down the line. He was so, so young.
     
    Dave Decadent, 4011021 and Luisboa like this.
  19. Luisboa

    Luisboa Forum Resident

    Location:
    Coimbra, Portugal
    I think I can understand them and dont blame them for that. I guess in the time they think is just things that look cool to say. To make an entire album a statement of is own dead is hard to believe, so naturally they havent believe it.
     
  20. ghoulsurgery

    ghoulsurgery House Ghost

    Location:
    New Jersey
    To the other guys, Ian was a goofy dude. He played pranks with them. It’s very easy to see how they believed it was a persona for the music.
     
    Mumdad, Luisboa and NunoBento like this.
  21. pocketcalculator

    pocketcalculator Well-Known Member

    Location:
    New York City
    I don't know that Ian Curtis was someone who was naturally predisposed to depression or suicidal ideation. Hook (I can't remember if it was in his memoir or in a discussion after) said that years later he showed Ian's anti-epilepsy prescriptions to a doctor, who said, "On these medications, it's no wonder he killed himself" - in other words, that's it's now known that these drugs cause massive depression.

    The other thing is that suicidal ideation is something that isn't permanent. If Ian had gotten proper treatment, or something positive had changed his life (like the impending US tour), if he had realized that breaking up with his wife or his girlfriend and what he was feeling isn't the end of the world, it's likely he could have moved passed it.
     
    Luisboa likes this.
  22. NunoBento

    NunoBento Rock 'n' Roll Star

    Location:
    London
    Bingo.

    If Ian found help, instead of taking his life, he wouldn't have gone to the States, quit the band and JD "3rd album" would turn out to be some sort of iteration of "Movement" anyway.
    The bottom line is: Ian was done with the music business thing. Much like Syd, 13 years earlier. JD could have carried on, but he wouldn't be in it.
     
    gja586 and Luisboa like this.
  23. pocketcalculator

    pocketcalculator Well-Known Member

    Location:
    New York City
    According to the guys in the band, while Ian didn't write the music, or come up with riffs or anything, he did actively work on the arrangements and putting pieces of songs together. Ceremony is a very catchy song. If you put that on Movement (as any US label would have demanded), tighten up the music, and add Ian's lyrics and singing, Movement would have been a much better album. Even if you just take the music of New Order as is, but add Ian's lyrics and singing, Joy Division would have been one of the biggest bands of the 80's, certainly bigger than the Cure ended up, and maybe as big as U2.
     
    Dave Decadent and William Byron like this.
  24. Luisboa

    Luisboa Forum Resident

    Location:
    Coimbra, Portugal
    And dont forget In a lonely Place. That is a terrific piece of music.
     
  25. peskypesky

    peskypesky Forum Resident

    Location:
    Texas
    Yeah, I can see him sticking with guitars, along the lines of what Nick Cave did.
     

Share This Page