Kef + B&Ws - Serious Listening Fatigue along with Disappointment?

Lots of wisdom here. I have the predecessor B&W speakers to the 702’s (CM 10S2) and was unhappy how they sounded with a decent Onkyo AVR. I should have known better because when I demoed them in the store, they were driving by McIntosh power! B&W speakers are fantastic but they don’t shine unless given abundant and quality power.

I upgraded to bigger and more refined iron with a Marantz SR-8012 and they sound significantly better. Not a little, a lot!

 

R3s with EL34/KT77 based tube amp fills my musical cup.

 

I've had various B&W speakers over the years mainly the 600 series and CM series. They are excellent speakers but have to be matched with warm electronics , even then they caused listening fatigue. Kef LS50 is pretty much the same, they need careful amplification and room treatment. I got a pair of Focal Aria 906's and couldn't be happier, I could listen to just about anything without any fatigue without loosing any details...

 

I thought the original Diamond 800 series tweeter was the most natural, neutral, and convincing I’d ever heard, and I still do. When I asked the guy at my store why the D3 series speakers had become so unpleasantly bright he put out his arms and said “just look around you.” He was right: it was all home theater customers. Later, as I was leaving, he looked at the collection of Joni Mitchell, Joan Sutherland, Miles Davis and Elvis Costello/Bacharach I had brought in for my demo and he said, “By the way, thanks for bringing in some real music for a change. You wouldn’t believe the stuff these people bring in.”
Actually, I would.

 

I understand your frustration and have been there myself.
1) A dealer near me runs the new KEF R series and they need lots of break in - similar to the Spendor D series- which is literally 200+ hours. I had the Spendors and they sounded fatiguing for several weeks. My impressions of the KEF R series is that they can be bright but in the right setup can still sound very good more often than not
2) Fatigue is often where you do not have enough bass to balance the midrange and treble- again a function of break in but also speaker position and use of port plugs. Make sure your port plugs are removed, then check stand height (critical- follow the KEF manual) , experiment with toe in and distance to objects- walls, screens, etc. They need room all around.
3) Amplifier. Amplifier synergy is very important. I am not familiar with yours but it could easily be a contributing factor. If you have tried everything and still no luck it could be the amp.
4) Room reflections. If the speakers are close to side walls you will be hearing lots of reflected sound mixing with the main sound causing phase cancellations and interferences as well as comb filtering- which is horribly fatiguing. Again, try to move away from side walls according to the KEF manual. If you can't, try putting up some diffuser panels mid way on the walls and experiment with toe in- going as far as aiming at a spot a few feet in front of you.
5) Cables. Speaker and interconnect cables do make a difference too. I recommend the Kimber 8PR speaker cables and Wireworld Luna series interconnects for overly bright synergy. Each are reasonable.
As for the B&W, the same rules apply but I have no experience with your models and do have confidence that the KEFs can deliver good sound.

 

In my opinion you need a more neutral amplifier prior to going in the direction of speaker upgrades. The Emotiva, and I have their large mono blocks work really well with home theater, but are a bit to bright and forward if using for a strictly two channel music system, particularly if it is digital leaning.

 

Dynaudio and Totem would be an excellent choice. I think Totem uses Dynaudio drivers. If those sound bright, then you have an issue with your amps.
Tim

 

Really depends on the specific Dynaudio model. They don’t all share the same tonal balance. Contour 20s were brighter than the R3s in my system.

 

Ok, maybe I'm just talking like a jilted lover, because I used to love B&Ws. But the current B&W voicing is just too bright. I really don't think it's a matter of finding the right amp. I have mostly CJ gear, which is decidedly mellow -- maybe too mellow for some -- and I wouldn't even consider the current 800D3 series for my system, There's just so much an amp can do.

 

I really enjoyed my recent auditions of 802D3s and the Formation Duos. They were quite neutral sounding, though I suppose that might be because the nearest side walls were a good 10’ away. The room wasn’t treated. I’m quite sensitive to bright speakers and fully expected them to sound as such but was pleasantly surprised by their balance. I heard the 705s in the same room but different wall placement and partnering gear — wasn’t impressed. The Duos were the clear value leaders that day.

 

Yeah, I would think that at the level of the 802 and 801s, they address my issue. Of the current D3s, I've only heard up through the 803. The 804D3 was a let down -- I don't what they did to that. The 805 and 803 would be fun on a lot of music, but I'd be concerned about the fatigue factor setting in pretty quick, at least for me.

 

What amp/preamp are you running?

 

Get some Focals

 

This!

I wonder how many have looked at the OP's drawing of his room set-up?



Sub,

First some questions:

1. are the speakers being used on the manufacturers' or similar stands?

2. how far are they from your TV and the wall?


I agree with zonto's observation about your room, so my suggestion, before you spend any money, is to rotate your set-up by 90 degrees. Put the TV and speakers on the left-hand wall. I would suggest placing the center of each speaker at 1/5 of the width from each sidewall, this will give you roughly 7' between the speakers. Turn the sofa 90 degrees, and move it such that you are around 7' away from each speaker. As your room is not large, and you have to find the space for other items, it will be tough to pull the speakers far away from the rear wall, but that always improves things. You may still have issues with wall reflections, but you will have a more symmetric set-up, and you will not be between two large areas of glass.

 

Rock and particularly hard rock and heavy metal are the toughest torture tests, in my opinion as a loudspeaker engineer. I cynically believe you hear so much classical and solo female voice etc at shows because it doesn't strain the speakers, they sound great. Crank up some Motorhead, UGH a lot of "great" speakers can't take it and turn into a hash of distortion. It's not the room or the positioning or whatever, 99% likely it's the SPEAKERS. And while I've long admired KEF and B&W as engineering companies, when we were doing a lot of listening last year I was not blown away.

The one time at a shop I have been able to really let rip was at Upscale Audio, Monitor Audio Silver 300s ($2kish) powered by PrimaLuna tubes. I blasted the entire Piece of Mind album and then segued into No Sleep 'Til Hammersmith. I was absolutely shocked that not only did the speakers not break a sweat, but that that Motorhead album could sound much cleaner than I had ever heard it. Maiden's "To Tame A Land" sounded like an audiophile track, just great. Oddly, I've never gotten around to cranking the $4k-ish Focal 936 that were ultimately purchased that day with the same stuff.

As for Klipsch, the Heritage line is quite efficient, and the BIG regular tower models with like twin 8" or whatever. I've never had a chance to crank metal into them. I did once crank Maiden into a set of Klipschorns, giving the salesman a minor infarction.

Back to Wharfedale, we really liked the Linton Heritage. Cranked Zeppelin but not as loud due to Audio Element's open shop. With the matching stands they are wide towers-exactly as tall as the Dali and Wharfedale Evo 4.4 next to them neither of which did we like as much.

Oh Dynaudio-they are a great company, consistently hewing to their vision of clean and loud dynamic output...but more from classical music. They are not speakers to hammer; just ask Alpine who ate a lot of returns selling their drivers into the car audio market.

 

That will cause most of your fatigue problem.

 

I share your enthusiasm for the KEF R series being an owner of a pair of R3s. I agree the supplied manual can be a valuable resource when setting up and using the R3. Special note should be mentioned when using the port bung's which are made up of two pieces that allow at least three possible bass tuning scenarios. Though the manual is sparse on text and relies more on illustrations, meaningful information can be gleaned from studying them specifically the ones pertaining to the use of the bungs. As illustrated a 9" reference distance from the front wall is illustrated with three potential bass response curves, one without the bung showing an exaggerated bass hump in the lower bass, the second with the center portion of the bung removed showing a less exaggerated rise in the bass and the third with the center portion in place and completely blocking the port illustrating flat response to the speakers lowest bass frequencies. One could construe that moving the speakers away from the front wall and using various combinations of the bung with or without the center portion or without the bung at all one could tune the speaker for the smoothest bass response in a variety of situations.

Similarly with my speakers placed with their ports about 18" from the front wall of my listening room and using them with and without the bung and finally with it's center of the bung removed I've been able to achieve at least to my satisfaction a bass response that is flat and extended without any boom and with minimal effect on the speakers overall tonal balance. I think the user should give ample consideration to the use of the bungs when optimizing the R3s placement in their chosen listening environment.

 

I moved things around this past weekend. I moved the R3s closer to the wall hoping to get away with more bass. At 17" from front wall, more bass but took away tightness. Moved it up to 21" - BAM! there it is. Originally had it at 29" with previous set up. Positioning for most speakers is essential.

 

RTFM baby!

 

Didn't they OP say in another thread they were listening at really loud volumes?

Three days of loud volume would certainly result in fatigue and will also damage hearing.

 

Oy! RTFM?

 

Gotcha.

 

Read the Fine Manual....

 

Took me a while, I had to look it up. I hate acronyms. I never know what they mean.

 

credit the US military. they came up with some entertaining ones.