i see your room is 12x15 -- how far are you speakers from the back and side walls? sounds like you're getting some things i'm not! for reference, my speakers are 37" from back wall to front baffle and 28.5" from the side wall to the middle of the speaker. no toe in.
Hello mds, As I wrote in posts before, I am using the EC 4.8 pre and AW250r . They deliver 250W/ 8 Ohm, 440W/ 4Ohm and 625W/ 2Ohm short time stabilty up to 0.5 Ohm, both completly symmetrical designed, 2 x 650 Watt transformers, 2 x 110000uf caps ( 2x13000uf for the pre). Description of soundqualties would be the same as jcn 3 wrote. What I like especially, is that this rather strong amp sounds a lot better even at very low levels. It gets warm with no signal, I presume that is because of its pretty high range of class A, which might explain the low level soundquality. P.S. a little of topic - the latest improvement of SQ was delivered when I put a 9 square meter carpet right in front of the speakers, the results were very astonishing. P.S.2 Did You start Your project?
At first I was powering my Ref 1s with an Outlaw RR2150, stereo receiver, AB, 100 w into 8 Ohms. Sounded fine and definitely showed the significant difference between the Ref 1s and my prior speakers (Mirage OMD-15). However, the sound definitely sounded constrained...a bit flat. After considering many different options, I ended up going blind into a Parasound A21+ (AB, first few watts (6?) in pure A, 300 W into 8 Ohms). Definitely feels like the veil have been lifted! The soundstage is larger (all dimensions) and there is just more life to the music. While it definitely comes alive at higher volumes where the headroom generated by the extra watts are clearly evident, it is striking (at least to me) how more enjoyable is the music at low volume.
I have been a lurker on here for a while, and this got me to sign up!! I am using a Musical Fidelity M6si amplifier (integrated but a dual mono set-up in a single chasis) with my Kef Reference 1's. Its 220 watts into 8ohms I believe. I bought the speakers to replace some disappointing PMC Twenty5 22's. I had been trying to get my set-up right for a while, where I was trying to accomodate an AV and Stereo set-up in a UK living room. In the end, I got so annoyed I split the set-ups and managed to convince the other half to let me use another room in the house just for stereo. I have done measurements of the room, and despite a slightly strange shape it doesnt measure badly. I have had convolution filters generated to make a few changes based on the mesurements. I can post these if people are interested. Regarding positioning, I have tried the lot, I actually placed the Kefs on some plastic chopping boards and slid them back and forwards trying different toe in angles from flat to straight at the listener and everything between. I actually do have them toe'd in now, and it was based on the advice in the Kef Reference white paper which says "Toe-in can help to fine tune the stereo image and the perceived high frequency energy. Maximum high frequency energy will reach the listener when the tweeters are pointing directly at the listening position. With Uni-Q the balance does not suffer if you listen of axis, so using a flatter setup with less toe can be a very good option for lively rooms". I thought that was helpful, I get a great stereo image. A few remarks on the rest of the kit, I am a Roon user with a Qobuz account and 3500 ripped FLAC files on a Synology NAS. My Roon Core sits on an Intel Nuc i7 in a fanless case. I have a HDPlex linear power supply feeding a Netgear switch, the Roon Core and my Allo USBridge Signature Streamer which supplies my Topping D90 balanced DAC, control is via tablet. The DAC then connects to the amp via XLR. I also use HQPlayer which has the convolution files loaded onto it. This sits on my desktop win10 i7 machine. It all works well, but the best bit is the speakers. Mine were second hand, and I traded my PMCs against them and the KEF stands, I had to add some cash to make up the difference. I love them. My best purchase.
Welcome to the SHF, it is a great place with a wealth of info. Thanks for the background on your set up. I looked up your integrated amp, since I was not familiar. It is a really attractive looking piece of equipment and certainly built to very high standards, no wonder why you are so happy with the sound coming from the KEF speakers. The two separate power supplies is really a great build and you certainly have enough power on tap. I would be curious to know the distances you have settled upon for the speakers in relationship to the room boundaries and your listening spot along with how much space there is behind your head to the rear wall. It would also be helpful to know the size of the room and since it is oddly shaped a rough dimension would be great. The more info us KEF Reference users can provide each other the better off we will be in terms of knowing what upgrades would work well, how to best place our speakers and on and on. I am also curious at how much you have toed in the speakers since I have found a pretty straight on approach works best for me in both of my rooms where the KEF speakers reside. I toiled with my HT set up, which worked incredibly with TV and movies however 2 channel stereo it was just OK. In one of my upgrades a preamplifier with a HT by-pass needed a home so I moved it into the HT room and what a difference this made for my 2 channel music listening. This was the solution that was waiting to happen and once it did I can say sometimes I prefer music in that room particularly since it is a much larger room than my dedicated 2 channel room.
Yes it appears our rooms are about the same in size. I am very fortunate that my wife gave me a room in the house for a dedicated 2 channel set up. The room is way off from the portion of the house that we use on a regular basis so noise pollution in either direction is next to none. Due to being so far from everyone and being able to close off the room I was also able to use sound absorption and diffusion panels through out the room which might be the difference in sound quality of the two rooms. My ears are about 40 inches or so off the back wall and that wall is treated with sound absorption which I believe gives a larger room feel. The front of the room where my rig is set between the speakers has sound diffusion panels behind the speakers and triangular bass traps in the front room corners. The room has a very large wool area rug that the speakers are spiked into. The wall are very heavy plaster. The wall / ceiling juncture has a 5" crown molding which I believe helps. Early reflection on one wall is a 5' opening into another room and the other early reflection wall has a drape in front of a 5' wide window. The drape remains closed unless the weather is perfect and then I open the windows as wide as I can. The room being treated pretty extensively has made a big difference in sound. It is not over damped and certainly not lively. When you walk into the room you feel in your ears the difference between the room you left and my music room. Clapping your hands and there is no echo. The speakers are 54" to the speaker's front baffle measured from the front wall, 36" off the side walls measured to the center of the tweeter with a very slight toe-in. As mentioned when seated my ears are about 40" away from the rear wall. I have moved these speakers around extensively, and probably will do it again sometime in the future, always looking for the best spot, but this seems to be it because I always come back to these measurements. One thing I have noticed is the preamplifier has a larger impact on sound stage than one imagines. When I upgraded my preamplifier, which this is it now, I came to the conclusion that I had always under estimated it power in creating or not creating an influence on the sound of your system. It is weird that you speak about your equipment not wanting to influence the sound, it should be neutral and I agree, but as I have upgraded my sound has gotten better so is it that the pieces are letting the speaker be itself more or do all the pieces have some sort of influence on each other to make a whole? I don't know or care, the important thing is the sound just gets better.
Thanks mds for the welcome, it is much appreciated. I can show you a (badly) drawn sketch I made recently which gives the rough dimensions and shows the room layout. Its our snug room, which is quickly becoming my play room!! I will dig out a photo too.
Hello mds, Just curious, to what preamp did You upgrade ? I think this shows again that the Ref 1 is a perfectly developed speaker, because they react on any change in the environment , for the good and the bad.
Unfortunately no I did not start the rack yet. I did do internet searches and found lots of the bits and pieces and when I added them up the total starting to become way more than I would have thought. Stainless or Aluminum is not an inexpensive material particularly when you are looking for pieces that are finished and not rough. I am sorry to say but the project is on a back burner due to cost. I did appreciate all the guidance you gave me.
Yes the speakers are extremely revealing and proof to me was the preamplifier upgrade. I went from a Backert Labs Rhumba 1.2 to a Backert Labs Rhumba 1.3 Extreme. I auditioned the preamplifier for a week prior to make my decision. When I pulled the Extreme out and put the 1.2 back in, well it was too hard to live with what I lost so I upgraded. This ended up being a really great upgrade because the 1.2 went into my HT room and made such and impressive improvement with 2-channle music that I felt I received two wonderful upgrades for the price of one.
Beautiful room and great looking gear. I realize you are confined in how far out the speakers can be pulled but from my reading the front wall to the baffle in relationship to the side wall center of tweeter should not be equal for the best sound and sound stage. Also the further out into the room the speakers can be pulled will increase the depth of the sound stage. Just for fun could you pull the speakers further into the room and report on what you hear?
thanks for the detailed response. my room is 10x15. there's a window between the speakers on the front wall. the back half of the right wall is open to another living area. i've also done some room treatments -- all gik products: tri-traps in front corners, 4" absorption covering first reflection points on both sides, 6" absorption on rear wall behind listening position. 8x12 wool rug covers most of the floor. no real space for diffusion panels in the front without encroaching on the window. i have some aborption for the ceiling for that first reflection, just haven't installed those . . . listening position has ears 95" from speakers (which are 70" apart) and about 58" from the back wall. moving closer gets towards the center of the room -- as you get closer to the middle the center fill starts to go away. i'll have to try pulling the speakers forward again and moving the listening position back some like you've done.-- like you, i've moved the speakers around a lot and recall the bass dropping off when pulling much further forward. i do wish i had the extra 2' in room width -- i imagine that would make a huge difference.
Congrats to Your successful upgrades ! These Backert pres look great, I presume they sound fantastic too. I never heard of them, I suppose they are not avaiable in Europe, at least in germany. I have been thinking latley to try a tube preamp with my SS poweramp, just to see what happens.
Have you ever experimented with covering the glass window? Seems that it would be extremely reflective. The room looks beautiful, really nice rug and having the components out of the room is a real plus. I try to keep my stack as low as possible wish it was only an amp or two between the speakers.
I was thinking that too. Even a light material curtain might help with reflections and not impinge on the light/view. Nice setup.
also @Echoes Myron yes, thanks. i'm sensitive to the fact that the windows are there and influence the sound. there are some blinds that have a light material but some curtains would clearly be better. i have 6" gik panels behind me, so hoping that offsets the window some. i'm just not ready to go down the curtain path at this point . . . . choices, choices . . . .
Certainly understand. The room is bright with sun light, and you have a lovely view. Just thought in the evening pulling a drape across might improve the sound and help with energy conservation. Based on your current room treatments I'm sure the sound is amazing.
Thank you! I think I was not accurate enough with the side measurements. The distance on the left speaker to the wall (its actually a door, but not in use) is about 70cm. It has some thick curtains which are generally drawn in the evening. The same is true behind the listening position with some very thick curtains. The distance from the right speaker into the alcove (where my work desk is, in these times) is about 150cm. I could pull the speakers out a bit, but they are specifically placed right now, measured and marked on the floor, and measured acoustically to generate the filters. I will dig out the result as well in a bit. If I did pull them out, I would also obscure the route to my desk, but might still be fun to try. You can see the centre line with the tape on the hearth in the picture. Thanks you! Yes, it sounds great. My only real worry is letting my 7 month old puppy in. As he would like to stick his nose in the drivers!! Below are the room measurements, the original on the left and the filters on the right, which get loaded into HQ Player.
Wish I had the knowledge and equipment to take measurements like these. I am very curious how my room would look graphed. Ha, I thought that was a mortar joint. I am also crazy about the symmetry in my room also. I have a rug that is made up of approximately six inches colored squares and the joints along each square has been used by me along with a tape measure to make sure things are just right.
This is a very nice curve indeed. It follows the Harman Target Curve which most people find very pleasing. Harman Target Curve
