KEF Reference Model Four - Vintage Bliss

So have you ever just completely changed your audio-room direction?!
Just need a breath of Fresh Air!?? Even if it's from someone else's lungs?

I went from nearly 20 years of Flee to Low powered tube SET's. Sharp, lean crossover less speakers of types, ribbon tweeters... Listened to hundreds of tubes.
Line stage preamps, Class-A preamps. No preamp...
Miles of Interconnects and power cords. Fuses and Outlets too.

Relentlessly Revealing; Gnat farts, know what I mean? Mix in a little soul now and then (recording dependent). And I found most of my music collection sounded horrible. And I didn't listen to most of my collection, except for in the car. nearly 80,000 tracks.

Lost interest overall and the gear aged...

So I adopted a pair of KEF Reference Model Four's in black from the very late 90's. Original Owner, nice condition considering he has kids. Sound great so far.
KEF - Reference Series Models One, Two, Three, Four - United States

I added recently:
Marantz Integrated, Model PM-KI
Wyred 4 Sound DAC2-DSD with the Femto clock.
And I have my eyes on a Rega P3 with a MC cartridge.
I still have an Arcam FMJ23 CDP
Harmonic Tech Power Cables
MIT S2 Interconnects
and more....

The DIFFERENCE is astonishing! Compromises and Base. BIG SOUND. Base rich mid-range. And did I mention the base??
They took over my listening room which leads into my office. Total of about 500 sq/f. But the listening room is exactly half. The KEF's just want More space. Keeps getting better the further they get from the walls and apart from each other. Ive never had a speaker that acted like this.
And at 92 db/sensitive they are consuming the Marantz's 200 watts! 92? How did they come up with that number?? Doesn't seem likely.

Very detailed you just have to listen. Im shocked that at 22 years old these models are bringing out detail and nuance I've not noticed before. But not in-your-face like! A Hard Slam is mixed with a polite caress. Soundstage is a step back most of the time, material dependent. Dark Maybe? Veiled a bit? All in a good non-fatiguing way. Lacks "air" but the snap of a snare drum is very real in the room - drums sets are "big and live" before you and the sound is BIG! Enveloping. EVERYTHING Sounds better. I went on a tear finding the most horrible great music I could find and it wasn't nearly as bad. You can still hear how horrible the recording is but its all better now. My surgically-minded speakers always keep reminding of this over and over till I get tired and walk away.

Ive listed to speakers from Alon, Joseph Audio and the 3.6 Maggies for countless hours with gear from Macintosh, Ayre, PS Audio and the likes. They are Fabulous and yet other different flavors, they can best the KEF in ways for sure but, but, but... Led Zeppelin! Rush! Pink Floyd...doesn't suck anymore! The Piña Colada Song was Awesome for once.
And my ears haven't bled in a while. Look Mom, no more band-aid's.


Who else have heard these Ref Four's? Owned them?


Looking for Recommendations for speaker cables.
I have heavy gauge Litz wire (base heavy), Silver coated copper (leaner and brighter for sure!), all in Bi-wire. Tried combinations together (Litz to low, silver-clad to highs) with some success.
New or used.
Synergistic Research. Transparent Audio. Audioquest cv8.
Copper? Silver? Shoelace?

And Id love to hear from similar experienced listeners.

I just got a Few Thousand NOS albums back to listen too - again :-D

 

A colleague back in the day had KEFs and a then new Carver Receiver. Was way better than what I had, sounded great. Can’t recall which model KEF though, could have been the Ref 4s.

I’ve been using 300B SETs and nearfield Triangle Titus monitors + sub for 20 years. Now setting up my MA Silver 8s, previously used in separate surround setup, with my new Parasound A 21 amp. Looking forward to the shootout.

 

This new Marantz PM-KI Signature Ruby is superb! Im rather shocked. I thought it would be just Ok. But Wow, Im impressed. Ken at Marantz was Actually Listening! Very tight and fast low base. Great vocals. Not bright but its all there. Very good Phono stage, the biggest surprise. Plenty of Power but beautifully detailed and quiet at low volumes. Old school style 2 channel integrated. The Class-D type they built is very good. Its like there are a few Aprex PQ's in there somewhere. Im a low powered purist amp fan, this is not a typical solid state amp. And it doesn't sound like a weighty tube amp either. Crazy fast base.
I have some criticisms but they are few and mostly technical.

 

You had me at a "hard slam with a polite caress"

Nice speakers man, congrats!

 

I have the Reference Twos in an HT setup. They sound great.

 

Full range "classic sound" means deep tight tuneful bass at no extra charge.
Sweet and clear midrange and extended timbrally natural treble with no ear fester...
Welcome to the club.
There is NO going back.

 

HA. Thanks.

I will most likely order a pair or Tekton Design speakers next year. I almost did recently, but ran into the KEFs as a test run. They aren't Easy to place in the room! Not easy at all. They want what they want, walk around it. Im surprised how much of a toe in they need to tighten up the bass, control it really. Also im sure its my Old house too. Its 120 yo American Four Square. Thick plaster walls, oak floors and heavy moldings everywhere and giant windows all around. Fireplaces and brick too. Its lively as you can imagine but has good tone Hahaha.

Im torn between the Tekton Double Impacts with the be tweeter and ClarityPro Caps (must do upgrades) and the Pendragon's with the same upgrades. THEN I spoke to Eric and he's been making a Pendagon with the 7 driver 2-way array he uses in the Double Impacts. Apparently better for the average room. He'll likely add these to his line-up. They will make anything you want and they all can sing the phone book. They are BIG SPEAKERS. Bigger than the KEF 4's. Id also like a nice pair of B&W 80xNs. I need to own one of them for a while. And Im taking suggestions.

I listen to Electronic music too, some EDM. Beastie boys/DMC... its all sounds good. Classic or not.

 

If your new Kef's are a bit dark and veiled, you might consider a recap. They are over 20 years old now, and could use a refresh. Falcon Acoustics, in the UK, sells the Alcap brand of electrolytic capacitors, which are the modern equivalent of what Kef originally used. They should have the same tone and timbre. Also, you mentioned ClarityCaps, that Tekton uses. They'd work well for your Kefs too. Nice and warm in tone.

 

Yes, Kef has made some beautiful speakers over the years. You description of the sound of the Fours is invigorating.
I have a pair of fully refurbed R107s. The Xovers and the Kef Kube were reebuilt by my local speaker guy who really knows his stuff. They're actually better now then when they were new.

I'd love to hear your Fours tho.

 

What shall the new speaker cables do better?
Clearer? Warmer?

 

I have 104/2s that I bought minty/used that were rebuilt and also have the KUBE. I found my KUBE new in box and nothing has been done to it. What did he do to that to rebuild it?

Thanks.

 

I had a pair of Kef Reference 103/4 which I bought new in 1993. They cost a lot of money for someone younger than 30 back then. I used them partnered with Meridian 200 series gear (incl monoblock power amps) and an Ariston RD 11 turntable.

They were frustrating to be honest. A little bass light (to my ears at the time) to begin with and then, a few years later but suddenly, ridiculously bass heavy. I just couldn't tame them either way.

So, I ended up trying to trade them in at a well-respected UK hifi chain and was offered very little indeed for them (still mint and still boxed). The salesman implied that I should have known that they would be trouble because, as he explained, Kef reference series gear is not designed to last - because it is 'reference' it is expected that their performance will significantly deteriorate after just a few years...

I thought that was 'ballcocks' then and I still do now. But I was (relatively) young and inexperienced and had nowhere to turn for advice in that pre-internet age. It put me off hifi stores for quite a while...

They were frustrating though; whatever the reason...

 

They get thick and congested easily, no need to add any more base weight. Extra detail works nicely with them, they are rather polite as is the Marantz.

I just got a AudioQuest "Carbon" USB cable and WOW what a difference! More detail, sharpness and just more of everything. Especially the soundstage.
Im using old MIT S2 Low-Impedance interconnects. I have about 4 sets of them. The DAC would prefer a different IC I believe. They are neutral to warm.
Im using older Harmonic Technology PCs (Fantasy 10's I believe) that have always been good on my analog gear. A Kimber Gold PC too (great on Amps).

So I have some wire around.
A stranded heavy gauge copper magnetic Litz braid with a fabric wrap. Great on the low powered tube amps I always thought. I have 2 sets about 9 feet.
A solid core crystallitz by AudioQuest biwire (each binding post gets 3 16g Solid-core wires) a stiff 8 feet.
A stranded silver-clad copper in biwire, 3 18g nylon wrapped conductors per post, 9 feet.

The Litz Wire (hard to find NASA surplus for satellites) is very quiet, rich base and rather full sounding. Sometimes 1 set with jumpers is enough on a biwire speaker.
The Solid core is rather good. Tight and ample bass. tighter overall. not bright or extended. Nice vocals, bit smoother then sharp.
The silver wire I know well. It's was more NASA surplus wire. Very quiet, very dynamic, very extended. Leaner base compared to the above types. Brighter presentation but lacks too much soul. The Telefunken of wire LOL
Im an Amprex PQ fan!!

So many cables out there. Old and new.
Synergistic X2/Signatures that have the active dielectric are raved about for used.
JPS Labs SuperConductors of newer generation.
Transparent Audio, Moon, Analysis Plus

New the prices are stupid. The cable my buddy uses that I Love is $3500. Used sells for over $2000.
Im NOT spending that type of money on wire. Im sorry. It does sound Great.........

 

Im really liking them so far. Hard to tame but worth it. Im using a older KRK V2 12" studio sub. Very powerful but designed to work with the KRK V8 s2's. the lowest crossover point is 50Hz and its too intrusive for these speakers. It also will NOT courier load. KRK tells you not to even try, it literally wants to be in the center of the room which I was able to accommodate.

I need a REL Sub for 2-channel audio now.

Ive been calling around about the ferrofluid and crossovers. Ive been repeatedly told that the mortality rate and overall sound degradation on the NT25 tweeters is very high when opened up and serviced. Most won't even do it. And the realignment of the coaxial drivers is difficult to get right and never they way KEF did it. Mine are working fine, no need to mess with them at this time. I did find some place in the country that will replace the drivers completely and align them for a few hundred dollars. Its good to know.

Ive also been told a few times that caps made after the 70s in speakers usually Never weak or degrade much at all. And that replacing them will change the character of the speaker in some way. Again, if its working well leave it alone and enjoy it while it lasts. There are many B&W upgrade paths in crossovers and some for the KEF fans but again, its a change in the sound from design if it wasn't broken.

Im having a set of Alon II Mk 2's reconed, I believe they are ok. Replacing them is difficult although the maker has not stock at $1300 each driver. reconing is maybe $200.
If you never heard a Alon II think Vanderstein with more base.

 

Yes, your Fours are newer than mine and it sounds like they're in pretty good shape. Best to just enjoy them as they are. That's excellent.
My R107s go down to 20 htz, but I still use a sub with them. It's only on for Classical or low-levl listening tho.

Dave

 

I'm not really sure of what parts he replaced. Sorry. But he was originally trying to get some Burr-Bown parts for it, but we waited for 2 months for them and they still couldn't say when they could deliver them.
The new parts were drawing more amperage, so he wasn't able to replace them all or it would have blown the Kube power supply. Op amps I believe.
It sounds great now, tho ...

 

Inexpensive try - search for Cosmic Audio on eBay (German company)
May look weird to you, but these cables made me sell my Kimbers (KS 3033 and KS 1030 and 1036 interconnects)

The Kimbers were in comparison sounding thick and mushy and veiled.
Cosmic Audio cables never sound harsh or bright, just clear and detailed and delicate.

should be no more than 300 USD including freight

 

I found a speaker repair tech in Florida that has been replacing the NT25 KEF Tweeter with a Seas model specifically milled for replacement.
They can refit the NT25 with this Seas driver into the B160 coaxial drive for about $150 each complete.

Anyone have experience with Seas Drivers?

They said in their experience, 90% of the refurbished NT25s sound bad. Said its just impossible to do this correctly, change the ferrofluid. He stopped doing it some time ago and found these Seas HF drivers that work well.

 

More Info for Vintage Speaker maintenance.

Upgrade in Progress! Kef Reference Four (1998) Seas Tweeter for KEF B160.

Ive been shopping and learning about owning Great Vintage Speakers.
The reality is that they start to get compromised in sound after around 15 years or so.
There are so many variables and speaker components degrade at varying rates depending on manufacturer.
In many ways its Impossible to actually hear a vintage speaker as it did when it was new.
NOS doesn't even really count since they are also not newly made and few manufactures continue to make these parts for decades.

Seas makes speakers that are replaceable or adaptable to vintage models.
SEAS VINTAGE DRIVERS

For the KEF Ref Model 4's (model 1 through 4) this Seas driver (both parts of the coaxial) can be "adapted" for the NT25 and B160
http://www.seas.no/images/stories/vintage/pdfdataheet/h1144_t18rextvfc.pdf

Moving forward on the upgrade.
Helping to keep KEF alive.

 

KEF Ref Model Four Update.

The Speaker Exchange, Tampa Florida did a wonderful job.
They have been doing these on the KEF Uni-Qs with great success.
Seas soft-dome tweeter replaces the nt25 that are impossible to get and repair.

Soundstage and air is restored. Not bright, lots of detail. Improved soundstage width and depth.
These models have a rather deep soundstage with lots of layering. 2nd or 3td row presentation and they still have the same character.
All of these vintage reference speakers are too old to have good working stock ferro-fluid tweeters.
This is a great option for Many vintage KEF speakers!

The presentation of these Model 4's is BIG. Fists full of base and authority. Sweet, rich vocals. Deep a layered soundstage but the speaker placement in the room is and remains difficult. But when you find the spot its rather spectacular. Amazing for Folk, Rock, Vocals. But im playing EDM and Electronic Pop and Jazz too and they make you Smile. They FILL the room. I also believe the Marantz's Class-D amps tight deep base is perfect for them.