Kenny Dorham, "Quiet Kenny": Does every version have the same 'skip' on "Alone Together"?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by 2xUeL, Jun 16, 2015.

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  1. Maggie

    Maggie funky but chic

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Not denying there might be a Kenny flub here, but the tempo seems to race for a split second (the snare hits too early). If the leader had erred this early in the song, you'd think they would have stopped the take.
     
  2. AaronW

    AaronW Formerly Blackie

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Actually there is a stereo version of Soultrane cut by Rudy. I don't own a copy but have seen it with Van Gelder stamped in the deadwax and as far as I know Rudy never did (or at least put his mark on) any electronically-rechanneled records.
     
  3. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York, NY
    Listening to the OJC version in headphones, it's pretty obvious that something technically isn't right. The tempo does skip just a hair but there's also an unnaturally sharp attack sound in the right channel...maybe it can't be heard as well in mono as well and that's how they monitored and mixed it...?
     
  4. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York, NY
    I think that's a typo. A quick scan of popsike.com seems to indicate that no vinyl stereo copy has ever been sold...?
     
  5. Tom Campbell

    Tom Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    I don't think there is any true stereo version of Soultrane out there. I have the original, the OJC, the AP 45 rpm version and the MoFi CD, and they are all mono. I think that '60s-era blue Prestige label that Blackie linked to is just a mistake. The original, of course, has the yellow label.
     
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  6. Maggie

    Maggie funky but chic

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    If Soultrane existed in stereo, tape research would have found it by now.
     
  7. AaronW

    AaronW Formerly Blackie

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I've had a copy in my hands, PRST catalog number hand etched by Rudy himself. Got to buy the next copy I see to give it a listen, very curious now.
     
  8. Tom Campbell

    Tom Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, MA
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  9. AaronW

    AaronW Formerly Blackie

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Unless what Steve said also happened to Soultrane sometime after Rudy did a stereo cut.

     
  10. AaronW

    AaronW Formerly Blackie

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Many Liberty reissue Blue Notes of 4000 series titles state electronically re-channeled stereo yet are in true stereo. I've never seen a fake-stereo record with Rudy's mark in the deadwax, anyone have one?

    PS - I just bought that copy, my curiosity got the better of me. I'll report back when it arrives.
     
  11. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York, NY
    Electronically rechanneled/remastered stereo usually (always?) means it's made from a full-track (mono) master tape so that doesn't prove that a two-track ('true' stereo) master ever existed. I don't mean to be argumentative, I'd just like to know if there's evidence that the album was recorded to two-track tape.
     
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  12. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York, NY
    Sorry, I am just noticing that that copy on eBay does indeed have the Van Gelder stamp. So I agree, I would be surprised if it turned out to be fake stereo.

    Well if Soultrane was recorded to two-track tape, that wouldn't surprise me since Wheelin' and Dealin' was recorded in 1957 and a true stereo version of that exists. I'm just skeptical that he recorded everything to two-track for Prestige after he started recording to two-track for Blue Note in early 1957...then again, maybe he did.
     
  13. Tom Campbell

    Tom Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    I know. I don't think the LP has ever been issued in true stereo (only re-channeled stereo).

    Will wait to hear back from Blackie!
     
  14. Byrdsmaniac

    Byrdsmaniac Forum Resident

    I have one of those. The blue label on my record says stereo. It is actually mono. I believe Prestige sometimes just put regular mono records in a jacket labelled " Electronically Remastered for Stereo" like this copy of Soultrane. I worked for a record distributor in Chicago back then and we would get some of those Prestige albums as customer returns with complaints because they were mono. If they looked new, they were just resealed and resold because there was no stereo version, real or fake to be had.
     
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  15. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
  16. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York, NY
    Okay well that would explain everything. My surest bet is on that 'rechanneled stereo' copy definitely not being fake stereo because it's mastered by Van Gelder and I'd be surprised if he ever did that. It must be either true stereo or (true) mono, and by the tale of the tape I'm gonna agree that it's probably mislabeled and is really true mono.
     
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  17. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York, NY
    I haven't seen anything along the lines of hard evidence indicating that he would have ever recorded to two-track only then bounced down to make a full-track mono master tape. For Soultrane, that may have happened years after the fact and been done by someone else but I have always gotten the impression that Van Gelder never duplicated tapes (except maybe for rare occasions like A Love Supreme where Coltrane did vocal overdubs). I might be wrong but I find this quote of Van Gelder's telling, where he's talking about the 50/50 system he used for Blue Note (and may have used for other labels):

    “...both LP formats could be made from the original tape—not copies because analog tapes do not like to be copied to another analog tape.”
     
  18. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host

    That's not true, he did it all the time for Prestige. Why he didn't use 50/50s I have no idea but he didn't. The reason I know this is I have mastered many of them. Weird.
     
  19. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York, NY
    Well maybe Weinstock wanted a full-track master tape (in the 50/50 system there wouldn't have been one) and Van Gelder didn't want to do the splices twice so he duped the mono master with Weinstock's permission...?
     
  20. bresna

    bresna Forum Resident

    Location:
    York, Maine
    BTW, if you're a member of the Organissimo forums, contact member Stereo Jack. Jack (Woker) is not only the owner of Stereo Jack's record store in Cambridge, MA, he's a huge Kenny Dorham fan and probably has several versions of this to give you the definitive answer.
     
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  21. dianos

    dianos Forum Resident

    Location:
    The North
    I cannot hear anything strange on my 2009 OJC vinyl reissue.
     
  22. JRM

    JRM Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mile High City
    I wanted to learn more about Van Gelder's 50/50 system and came across this diagram. Posting in case anyone else is interested...

    [​IMG]
     
  23. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York, NY
    Too funny: I wrote that article and drew that picture…I'm everywhere haha!! :winkgrin:
     
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  24. JRM

    JRM Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mile High City
    Thanks! It was very informative!
     
  25. dianos

    dianos Forum Resident

    Location:
    The North
    I'm more impressed about the drawing than Van Gelders setup :agree:
     
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