Kirmuss Audio Ultrasonic RCM?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Steve0, Apr 28, 2018.

  1. Steve0

    Steve0 Audio Banana Thread Starter

    Location:
    australia
    no, it has none
     
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  2. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    No problem as long as the velvet lips are clean I dont think. Just one revolution should do, depending on the machine.
     
    eddiel and Coricama like this.
  3. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    I think it looks good, but the guy in Fremers video seemed a little sketchy to me, like a door salesaman trying to rip you off.
     
    klownschool likes this.
  4. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    A cable company targeting audiophiles may be trying to rip people off? I can't believe what I'm reading! :D
     
  5. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Well the best part was when he said that those other machines that clean more than 1 record at a time dont work because you need proper spacing between the records for the ultrasonic waves to reach all the way. Then 10 minutes later Fremer asks the @PerfectVinylForever guy about it and he says that they have done the math and it works perfectly fine.
    Cue the curb music:


    Seriously though, who do you trust? I guess Ill trust the supposed math.
     
    Robert C likes this.
  6. ssmith3046

    ssmith3046 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Arizona desert
    Good deal but I'm happy with my old fashioned Okki Nokki. I do like my Morrow interconnects and speaker cables though.
     
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  7. eddiel

    eddiel Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I concur with @Leonthepro It shouldn't be an issue unless there's an issue with the velvet strips. I'd say that your results will likely be better if you include a vacuum dry stage in the process.
     
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  8. Rentz

    Rentz Forum Resident

    Location:
    Texas
    At $800 it would still be cheaper to buy a vinyl stack and a tank if you didn’t want to go diy route
    I’d be more interested in a unit like this in the $500 range
     
    Joe Spivey likes this.
  9. JHC3

    JHC3 Senior Member

    Location:
    Chicago
    So, what do you guys propose about the two wet sides via a vis the vacuum machine drying stage? Dry one side and out that one down on the platter?
     
  10. Dorian75

    Dorian75 Forum President

    Location:
    Dana Point, CA
    Luckily for me to my Pro-Ject machine is platter-less, so no issue.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2018
    Leonthepro likes this.
  11. JHC3

    JHC3 Senior Member

    Location:
    Chicago
    That's nice but I was asking about those with vacuum drying machines with one side at a time, which is the majority of machines like the 16.5.
     
  12. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Put a mat under the platter, then remove it once side 1 is cleaned.
     
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  13. JHC3

    JHC3 Senior Member

    Location:
    Chicago
    Ok, well then you have a dirty and wet mat. Do you use multiple mats?
     
  14. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Yes, Michael Fremer always tells RCM users to use a second mat for dirty sides when cleaning. You dont want the recently cleaned side to lay on a dirty surface. I think he exhaggerates a lot when it comes to dirt, I dont bother doing that, I just clean my RCM often instead. But here with wet records it could be much more useful.
     
  15. JHC3

    JHC3 Senior Member

    Location:
    Chicago
    Well, that was my point, long before Michael Fremer was dishing out mat advice, it's was recommended by VPI to have another mat. My point is that it seems like you need more than just 1 because sure, the extra mat keeps the cleaned side clean as per usual, but we are talking about a wet AND dirty mat. I suppose the idea would be to have a separate mat to deal with these scenarios. Just trying to think this through as the wet record issue is the biggest shortcoming here.
     
  16. 5-String

    5-String μηδὲν ἄγαν

    Location:
    Sunshine State
    So, has anyone used the Kirmuss yet? What's the verdict?
     
  17. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    I doubt anyone could actually compare to other machines. But I mean its an ultrasonic bath, probably no worse or better than normal.
     
    5-String likes this.
  18. Satrus

    Satrus Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cork, Ireland
    I don't know what type of 'towel' he means but won't that of itself add 'lint' to the surface of the disc and induce a static charge also from any rubbing process that is necessary to dry the disc? A drying facility probably adds significantly to the cost and that is why they have excluded it. On the two established RCMs that I am familiar with (Klaudio and Audiodesk Systeme), the records are dust/lint free once dried and free of static. It is just a shame that these machines cost so much, 4k or thereabouts each. I am interested to know if the new Degritter RCM from Estonia will be on demonstration at Munich's High End Show this week. That looks like a 'reasonably affordable' (I use the the phrase 'advisedly') RCM for us Europeans (€1,800) but up in the stratosphere for Americans at something like $3,500.00. I cannot imagine that the likes of VPI, Keith Monks, Loricraft (now owned by SME UK Ltd) and Germany's Hannl are not working on their own ultrasonic cleaning machines? Competition will, or should, bring prices down but in terms of high end audio, you never know, do you?
     
    Coricama likes this.
  19. I've just put two LPs through the Kirmuss, and the results are very good. A couple observations:

    • The unit itself arrived double-boxed / well packaged
    • The included anti-bacterial surfactant is 99% water and 1% propane 1/2-diol (this info is on page 4 of the instructions)
    • The instructions say to add 40 mL (1.4 oz) of 70% alcohol
    • It's recommended to use the unit's de-gas function twice to remove any air bubbles in the water
    • The default cleaning time is 5 minutes, but this can be adjusted + or -
    • It is recommended to spray 'older, used' records with the surfactant after going through a 5 minute cleaning cycle and then put it in for a 2nd cycle. They also recommend rinsing with distilled water afterwards
    For my first use today I wanted to proceed with caution so I didn't use any alcohol or surfactant. In other words, just the distilled water. The two LPs I used had noticeable surface noise prior to the cleaning, and afterwards I'd guestimate the noise was reduced by 80%. And who knows, the remaining 'pops' could be due to defective vinyl and not something a RCM could take care of.

    The machine does make a bit of noise (like a constant motor) but certainly not as loud as a vacuum machine. It seemed no louder/softer than other ultrasonics that I've heard.

    My next test will be with adding 1.4 oz of a 70% alcohol solution, although I need to buy some first. If anyone here has any reasons why that might be a bad idea PLEASE post here as to why. Likewise, I need to investigate if there could be any harm/damage to the vinyl from using the included 99% water / 1% propane 1/2-diol surfactant. The owner assures me there won't be any but I don't want to take any chances. Anyone here have an opinion on this, one way or the other?

    Lastly, as mentioned above it's recommended to use distilled water to rinse off the surfactant. They suggest using a spray bottle to spray distilled water and then wiping clean. Not crazy about using a spray bottle as some water will inevitable get on the record labels so not sure what I'll do here. Any ideas?

    The only negative I have is that the records sit almost too firmly between strips of foam as they rotate in the bath. I'm guessing these will loosen up with use, but I may do a minor mod and replace them with velvet fabric. We'll see.

    But overall very happy with my purchase. The cost at AXPONA was $700, and this included a carbon fiber/felt brush, surfactant, a couple micro fiber clothes, camel hair brush, a stylus cleaner and a 7" felt record mat. I'll try it on some 7"45's in the coming days, as well as more LPs.
     
  20. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Run it again in just distilled water maybe? Having to rinse with an ultrasonic machine seems weird to me in general.
     
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  21. Dorian75

    Dorian75 Forum President

    Location:
    Dana Point, CA
    Thanks for this detailed report. 80% surface noise reduction is excellent. Had those records been cleaned previously, in a vacuum machine or any other method?
     
  22. Not sure - I aquired one of them (UK first pressing of the James Bond soundtrack On Her Majesty’s Secret Service, a great John Barry score) a few weeks back. It was advertised as M- and while it looked great, there was a bit of surface noise, especially in quieter tracks. The other was a first pressing of Elvis’ Elvis Is Back from 1960 that I got a few months ago. Some surface marks, and while some are no doubt causing some of the pops/clicks, the cleaning certainly got rid of contaminants in the grooves over its near 60 year life. I hadn’t cleaned either previously but who knows if they were ever cleaned by previous owners (although I doubt it).

    I listened to quieter passages on both LPs and took a few notes at what point I heard noise prior to cleaning. I then re-listened to those same parts after the cleaning and checked my notes. Unscientific, but quite a bit of the noise was gone.

    Turntable is a Technicss 1200G W/Soundsmith Zephyr III cart through a Raven Eagle integrated amp out to Martin Logan electrostats.
     
    Dorian75 likes this.
  23. I think they recommend it due to spraying it directly on the record, but I agree it seems odd. I’ll probably experiment with some records from my local record shop’s ‘dollar’ bin.
     
  24. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    A few thoughts, not having used this machine:
    Alcohol and ultrasonic are not necessarily a good mix, due to the heat from ultrasonic and the flash point of alcohol. I know people use a small amount of alcohol for their ultrasonic solutions (perhaps a carry-over from the days of home brew record cleaning fluids), but alcohol is essentially a solvent as I understand it, and not a terribly effective surfactant. If you want to look at various ultrasonic cleaning surfactants meant for vinyl and used with some success on LP cleaning, find the thread in Audiogon called 'Thumbs Up for Ultrasonic Cleaning" (or something like that). You'll see a pretty informative discussion on DIY ultrasonic, temperatures, surfactants, spacing, etc. (The spacing is addressed by your new machine).
    Here are my other thoughts:
    water alone is not nearly as effective as using an appropriate surfactant in the ultrasonic bath- it increases cavitation effect considerably. The downside is that you have to remove the residue. This means some sort of pure water rinse-- distilled is ok-- and preferably vacuum, which runs into more time and potential contamination issues, but in my experience using other machines, gets better results than air drying.
    you also have to deal with contamination of the bath water-- many of the DIY'ers have rigged up a filter/recycling system for low cost, to address this issue.
    I think the "wipes" the manufacturer was using (in the Fremer video) are clean room no lint wipes. I use them to wipe the inside of the ultrasonic tank on my KL since it is not easy to access through the little port on the back. They don't leave any lint, but i'm not sure how good they are at removing contamination/fluid residue from a record surface (as opposed to flat metal surfaces). They aren't terribly absorbent and have no texture-- they are essentially polyester.
    Good luck with your new machine. I've been using ultrasonic (in combination with vacuum) for some time now, first the Audio Desk, then the KL, and when the KL dies, I'm going to go DIY, mainly for the feature set.
     
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  25. Excellent suggestions and info! I have a Spin Clean, wondering if I filled it with just distilled water (and no surfactant) and spun the records around three or four rotations would work as a good rinse?
     

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