He disparages the competition while touting his superior process. I worked with an egghead like that and everybody hated him. This guy has stuck in my craw. From Marketing 101 "...do not disparage the competition, just explain why your product is good." The only review I found is from January 2019 other than the brief promise by Fremer for a full review. It's by the guy quoted on the Kirmuss web page, Paul Rigby at https://theaudiophileman.com/kirmuss-ka-rc-1-ultrasonic-review-part1. The other reviews I found are superficial, this one gets down to the Nitty Gritty (no pun intended). From the looks of the process, it won't take any longer than my own DIY method on new or well kept records. But I use 40 kHz and a Vacuum RCM so all my records are ruined, NOT. His outlandish claims need to be substantiated. To my knowledge he hasn't produced any of his so called research study's. He claims to be a lifelong audio nerd. So am I. That doesn't qualify me, him or anybody else to make those ridiculous, unsubstantiated claims. My process and fluids were developed by chemists and engineers, I trust them more than a nerd. I don't doubt that his contraption cleans records, though. Do I want to double the effort I put into clean records for essentially the same result? I think not. Rollin
You're selling your product against a very strong competitor. Is that any way to talk about him? I'll bet his hearing is as good if not better than yours. You must have had a negative experience with VPI to be down on those people. They all do what they are supposed to do without cutting down the competition. They build it and the customers come because they know it is a quality product. Rollin
Rollintubes, No, you have mistaken my humor and intimate relationship with the company, for negative commentary. I own 3 VPI turntables, have known Harry for almost 30 years, and work with Mat regularly. Marc is a regular contact for me, when Mat is not available. I absolutely love their products, and do not consider them a competitor. I am a dealer, not a manufacturer. I sell people what they want to buy; I don't dis other equipment to sell what I have. I know Mat well enough that we have discussed that his enjoyment at work is about Marketing, and building the strength of the company more than ever, and the friends he has made in the audio community, not really the music. There is nothing wrong with that. Mark cannot say good things about competitive products, if asked, and there's nothing wrong with that either. And Harry is retired, so he is not really an issue any more. Ok?
You probably should have called someone like me for discussion of variations in its use. It is more flexible, in choosing ways to use it, than any other RCM. I have ONLY had great pleasure using the Kirmuss, and all of my customers who bought one have given me excellent feedback. It does EVERYTHING that it's claimed to do, and is extremely reliable.
Warren, since you claim to know the Weisfelds and were only joking (it seems every dealer I run into is great friends with them), I'm Ok. In the context in which you made your comment you were defending the outlandish and unsubstantiated claims of Kirmuss. It sounded like just another knock on the competition. I was dead serious with my comment. I know even though Harry is "retired" his designs and innovation are now carried out by minions, but he's still active in the technical aspects of their products. Matt is a school teacher turned Audio exec and Marc is the gatekeeper. They all are proud of their company and I have never heard a negative word about any competitor of any product from them. They sell the right way. You feelin' me? I don't have any doubt that Kirmuss can clean a record with his contraption. Anybody that is interested should do due diligence. Read the reviews. None I have read are complimentary of him, but they say the machine/process works. In my particular case, using the Rushton Paul process, I get just as good results, with no enzyme build up, all fungus removed and prevented and static eliminated. The record is essentially "restored". I do 3 records in the time it takes to do 1 with his system. Rollin
Simply, you are the only person who has used a Kirmuss and not liked it, that I have ever heard about. I think what you wrote about "disingenuous" is much more curious, as though someone selling something has no right to express an honest opinion about it. Then, I believe you are saying that nobody who has successfully used a piece of equipment, and provided lessons to others about it, has any right to offer helping you to appreciate it's flexibility in operation. I think you are just insulted by me, who dared offer help to you, thinking maybe your understanding might benefit. If you think you've been insulted by me offering my opinion and help to you, think about having called me "disingenuous" and "the most curious in ages". Is it so unthinkable that I might know something about the Kirmuss that you didn't realize?
No I am not "feeling you". I think you push concepts to beyond reasonable limits. For example, i didnt knock VPI or anyone at VPI. And, I never said I was "great" friends with them. I have simply owned many VPI turntables since the very first HW-19, with which I worked with Mike and Harry through the many changes and updates they came up with along the way. So, I have had MANY telephone conversations with them over a period of decades. I have always been impressed with their creativity in innovation and product development. My relationships with them has been purely professional, not personal, and I did not imply otherwise. Another example, regarding Kirmuss's "outlandish and unsustantiated" claims, I think it is totally normal for all manufacturers of high end audio gear to tout that their "technology" is based on "new research" to deliver better performance than previously available products. "Outlandish" is an overly dramatic term for such common marketing practice. If most of us agree the machine works well, I would expect the manufacturer to explain the theories he used to come up with his product's perfomance, without having to provide detailed white papers about his research to "prove" his experimental techniques. Ok, you dont like Kirmuss as a human being. So what? If his product works well, and it is cheaper than what we have been offered before, why not let him market it in peace, instead of personally knocking him the way you claimed I did to the wonderful people at VPI?
You probably shouldn’t have written that, IMO that is. Anyway, I have expressed opinions about the Kirmuss machine (that looks more and more to me like a big Fisher-Price toy) based on usage and comparison. Apparently, my experience disagrees with yours. I find the Kirmuss machine laborious to use and a significant time-sink compared to more complete ultrasonic cleaning machines. The lower cost of the Kirmuss machine is a one-time benefit, but owners then have to live forever with the extra time needed to use the machine and scrub LPs and manually dry LPs (at least until some get fed up and go back to a SpinClean which is nearly as good when used as directed). The higher cost of the complete ultrasonic machines is a one-time burden. After that, in my experience with a variety of records of varying levels of cleanliness, less time is needed to thoroughly clean and dry LPs compared to the Kirmuss. Over years of use the saving in time that can be used for music listening and life in general is worth an awful lot. In an age where better and better technical solutions exist for so many things, Kirmuss is taking us back to manual drying and manual scrubbing and calling it an advanced system. What bollocks. And it still looks like a big Fisher-Price toy to me. I apologize to satisfied owners of the machine. If you’re following the instructions and getting good results, I am not putting down your purchase at all. I am objecting to Mr. Kirmuss’ marketing and merchandising tactics, and I’m objecting to his declarations of product superiority. And I’m challenging the way in which @Warren Jarrett - a dealer - is marketing the machine on SHF. This is a member-driven public audio discussion forum, not his privately-owned shop.
So we can agree to disagree. I said in the context of the conversation hurling an insult at Harry (I now know in jest) was uncalled for.I don't push any concepts. I just read, absorb and draw my own conclusions. What he says is outlandish. It goes against everything thing that has been accepted as conventional wisdom for a very long time. Sure it's normal for a manufacturers to make claims, usually if they are radically different from conventional wisdom (the venturi affect destroying high frequency, the record being bombarded millions of times in the US bath, etc.) they explain themselves, not as "lifelong audio nerds" but with some kind of data beside some photos on a web page. If these are "experimental techniques" his statements do not indicate that. He couches everything as absolute fact, not theory. Btw, I don't consider Kirmuss' snake oil "high end audio". I am not personally knocking him or his product, I'll leave that to @Agitator, I am calling into question his statements and use his responses to illustrate my point. I don't have any intention of buying his machine, I was interested in the conversation, but it has degenerated into this, which is unproductive and nobody else is interested. Go fight with @Agitator. I can see you are deep under the covers in bed with him so why don't you back off and let people discuss this without your marketing blitzkrieg. Peace out. Rollin
@Agitator +1 Thank you for articulating what I have been trying to say in a much clearer manner. I couldn't have said it better, because I couldn't. Rollin
I respect your opinion on this as well as a lot of other audio-related items and even though I don't necessarily agree, I appreciate thought-out critiques like this. The whole point of a forum is to discuss these things, good or bad. And I quite like the design of the Kirmuss - the less 90 degree edges around when dealing with records the better! Plus, the day I start worrying about the aesthetics of an RCM is the day they need to lock me up and throw away the key
For perspective, my opinion of the industrial/raw design of the Saidi Audio, KLAudio and System Desk machines aren't particularly kind either. They all look like they belong in a machine shop or a lab. Maybe the look is deliberately contrived for that reason, but I doubt it. It's probably just lazy design - form following function to a fault. At least the Kirmus machine has built-in carry handles. Fisher-Price Music Parade: Toys "R" Us - Fisher Price Little People Parade Ride On - Purple Kirmuss Ultrasonic machine: Kirmuss KA-RC-1 Ultrasonic Record Cleaning Machine | Bay Bloor Radio Toronto Canada The resemblance is suspicious. Did Mister Doctor Kirmuss crib design notes from the mavens at Fisher-Price or vice versa? Inquiring minds would like to know. Then there's the butt-ugly Audio Desk Systeme: Audio Desk Systeme Vinyl Cleaner Pro (Record Cleaning Machine) Sorry . . . I'm having too much fun with this, and I shouldn't. I suspect @Warren Jarrett will be unhappy. I'm not trying to goad him - I'm really not.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. They all seem to work, it's just a matter of what you want to spend. All the manufacturers claim to have the better product, nature of the business, or any business. It's forums like this one that are open to opinions, just that, opinions, of what works for them are the key to an informed purchase and or method. The Rushton method looks like a lot of time and effort to mix and hunt down a lot of different chemicals. I like it easy, some distilled water, a little alcohol in the US cleaner, final rinse with some distilled water on a vacuum machine and I'm ready to go. The best? who knows really, but it is better than a quick brush with a felt or carbon cleaner and there's usually a lot of junk in the bottom of the cleaner in my experience. I'm just an end user, and all the technical stuff I'll leave to the manufacturers to hash out and publish. I think the bottom line, without all the hype, is that the Kirmuss is a somewhat reasonably priced, pretty much all in one ultrasonic cleaner that is pretty easy to use and does a reasonable job cleaning vinyl. Most of us that own one are happy with the results.
I think that Kirmus gets the ultrasonic bath from a 3rd party, as I've seen a few other ultrasonic record cleaning companies with the same one. What gives the Kirmus its uniqueness is the 'top' part that holds/rotates the records. And the add-on supplies of course.
It seems to me from almost all the user comments here that this is undoubtedly a pretty good machine at a good price, especially if used in combination with a vacuum dry instead of some of the processes recommended by Mr Kirmuss. If I was in the market for such a device I would happily buy from @Warren Jarrett who seems enthusiastic, courteous and fair but I could not buy from someone who mixes similar levels of enthusiasm with dubious, exaggerated sounding claims and criticisms of competing products. Before I retired I worked in sales & was taught that: 'people often buy the person before the product' and 'never diss a competitors' products because you also criticise those who use them'.
well ok ... anyway ... back to discussion of the actual product ... well, process i should say, i have not had a single issue hand drying. does anyone else hand dry?
I hand dry, and prefer it as it helps me spot any imperfections I might have missed during the cleaning cycle. It's also easier on the ears vs. a vacuum dry.
I dry my records after final rinse of distilled water in my spin clean (no brushes) with spin clean cloth. I also keep all spin clean cloth in a bag so I know they are ready for use. The bags are from the clean room at my work. I don't mind the work that goes along with it. It's just like having to get up to flip the album. Just part of the process of the hobbie. I do love this machine!
A quick question so I can understand your declarative positions on all of these various cleaning machines and regimens: Do you actually own an US machine and, if so, which one? I currently have no skin in the US game, and have happily been using a combination of Disc Doctor fluids and brushes, along with a Nitty Gritty for fluid removal, for over 15 years.
Warren, I noticed on page 14 of this forum topic you mentioned a 4x12 slot option for the top. Is this no longer available?
I own the Saidi Audio ultrasonic now, and had the Audio Desk Systeme before the SA. I also have an Okki Nokki vacuum system, and the reliable, manual Spin Clean system. I also regularly use the VPI vacuum system and Audio Desk Systeme ultrasonic at My Kind of Music in Toronto. A friend owns a Kirmuss machine (purchased from Star Electronics in Toronto), so I’ve had a chance to use it quite often. One of the guys who occasionally kibitzes in my music listening group recently purchased a Kirmuss machine too, and several of us have had a chance to clean LPs with it prior to listening sessions at his place.
