It turned out that Kirmuss could not design a top with 4x12" slots. What they did make, though, is a new top with 3x12" and 1x7" slots. It is an accessory only, and cost $270. It is quite a complicated part, because it includes the slot lips and the mechanical gears that and rollers that turn the records. I have a few of these in stock now. For owners that already own a Kirmuss, my price is $199. But for a buyer of a new machine, I will keep the supplied 2x12" top for $70 credit, so the accessory 3x12" top by itself will add $130 to the price of the RCM. From me, the RCM is $100 off normal retail, so it is $770 with the original top, or $899 with the new top.
I have the Kirmuss and will agree that it is labor intensive. Usually, I make a day of it: cleaning about twenty records, listening to tunes and sampling home brew. When done, I am pretty happy with the results of the Kirmuss and somewhat inebriated by the home brew. The records sound much brighter that before. However, the clean records also highlight the damage done to the record that cannot be fixed. Drying the records can be a bit difficult when the cloths supplied with the kit become saturated.
I bought some of these, they work well. https://www.amazon.com/MagicFiber-M...leaning+Cloth&qid=1556391060&s=gateway&sr=8-4
Do you have more information on the Saidi ultrasonic machine? They don't list one on their web site, only a mechanical one, the SD-10.
Saidi Audio is the OEM maker for Audio Desk Systeme (so the distributor let drop when I ran into him at TAVES 2017). Or maybe the distributor was spinning a yarn. Or maybe it's true. The guts are basically identical though, but Saidi Audio has added a bit more control, a bigger fan, and an easier-to-clean filter. It uses all of the Audio Desk Systeme replacement rollers, squeegee, fluid and other parts, so it's definitely identical (but about CDN$1800 less). Here are some photos of my machine:
It looks like it either has more controls or more data displayed during the process. Looks nice, I am tempted to want one. But I really was not impressed with the manufacturing qulaity of the Audio Desk Pro, that I had for about one year. It cleaned records well, and was not labor intensive, but I felt it was flimsy, and therefore not reliable in the long run. It also stopped a few times in the middle of drying, which meant I could not trust it to completely dry the record without standing there next to it, staring at it, in case it got stuck again. Please explain what you like most about this RCM compared to the Kirmuss. And was there anything about the Kirmuss that you did like better, such as build quality and perception of their long-term reliability?
You had an unfortunate experience with the Audio Desk. I cannot relate to any sense of flimsiness in either the Audio Desk, KLAudio or Saidi Audio units. They’re all heavy, solidly and securely assembled, there are no rattles or other unusual noises, and they’re not as loud in operation as the mid-size vacuum units such as the Nitty Gritty and Okki Nokki (but about as identically noisy as the VPI and Keith Monks machines). Switches all respond firmly and positively. To me it is the Kirmus machine that seems less robust. I don’t think that its all-plastic construction (except for the actual US tank) is flimsy - please don’t misunderstand - but I’ve never been crazy about polythene outer casework. The operational insert that contains the drive mechanism and record slots seems well made, but regularly removing it for tank cleaning after every session is going to take its toll. Sooner or later its going to fall off the edge of a countertop when someone places it aside carelessly. Nearly happened to me, but I caught it before it fell. I followed the Kirmuss usage instructions published here. Direct comparisons with respect to cleaning efficiency are difficult to make. It’s effectively impossible to have two identically grimy LPs and then do simultaneous cleanings using the exact same solution for the exact same amount of time. Nevertheless, over the course of cleaning approximately 80 LPs over several weeks with both machines between September 2018 and the beginning of December 2018, total cleaning time (US cleaning only - not drying) was 1-5 minutes shorter, on average with the Saidi Audio US. The average difference was about 3 minutes (based on checks under the inspection ‘scope during the sessions to determine when an LP was actually done. Note that it’s easier to pull an LP mid-cleaning cycle from the Kirmuss (though it obviously shouldn’t be typical practice). When pre-treatment of a LP was needed (e.g., to remove sticky residue, hard and/or encrusted material, visible fungus/mold, etc.), there was still no difference in cleaning effectiveness. There were 28 LPs that needed pre-treatment during the comparison period. This is the only part of usage for which I did not follow the Kirmuss instructions, because the published recommendation for at least 4 x 5 minute cleaning cycles is absurd. The Kirmuss machine is undoubtedly somewhat less effective in operation when comparing various length single cleaning passes. But when pre-treatment was used I only found a need to re-clean in the Kirmuss about 80% of the time, and then only a second cleaning. About 20% of the time, a third pass was needed. By comparison, I found a need to re-clean in the Saidi Audio machine only about 50% of the time, with no third passes required. One of the problems with pre-treatment is end users who either use too much cleaning agent, not enough water, and/or not enough light brushing. I’ve even caught people brushing across the grooves instead of with/inline with the grooves. Rinsing with clean distilled water running off into a sink is, IME, crucial after a pre-treatment. Then let the US cavitation do its thing. No white rime (or whatever it is). The foregoing two paras are all in respect of really filthy LPs. For well cared for used LPs, a single 3 minute clean plus 4 minute dry in the Saidi Audio machine is all that’s needed. By comparison, the Kirmuss did almost as well, but still needed a second pass 50% of the time. So basically, 50% of the time I found that a single 5 minute pass with the Kirmuss plus manual drying was just as effective as the 3 x 4 session in the Saidi Audio for well cared for used LPs. The Kirmuss machine’s best feature is its retail price. IMO, the price is lower because it doesn’t not have a drying system/cycle, it uses a lower power US transmitter, and uses less costly case materials. But as I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, the lower retail price comes at the cost of an individual’s time needed to do a LP complete cleaning. So what’s a person’s time worth? Average time to clean 10 LPs with the Kirmuss system is 150 minutes. You need about four square feet of counter space to get set up efficiently. Average time to clean 10 identical LPs with the Saidi Audio machine is 75 minutes. You need about 2.5 square feet of counter space to get set up efficiently. The cost of branded cleaning supplies for the Saidi Audio machine (it uses Audio Desk parts and liquid) are idiotically expensive. The cost of Kirmuss stuff is somewhat less idiotically expensive. For the pre-treatment comparisons I used Kirmuss products when using the Kirmuss machine. I used L’Art du Son or Concept or Tri-Art Audio premixed solutions with the Saidi Audio - whatever happened to be handy, because any of the three work well. I did try the Kirmuss spritz for pre-treatment when using the Saidi Audio machine to clean four really bad LPs. A rinse as described above, then a 3 minute pass in the SA machine. No white rime, and no subsequent groove residue (and the ‘scope inspection was clean of course). Based on that result alone, it appears that the US frequency and amplitude of the SA machine is more efficient (and more effective) than the Kirmuss design. Water temperature control was never a problem with either machine. I cleaned one LP at a time. First of all, the SA machine has a single LP slot. The Kirmuss has multiple slots, but cleaning efficiency dropped dramatically during early tests with just two LPs, so I limited my comparisons to one LP at a time. With two LPs in the Kirmuss, sometimes five x five minute cleaning cycles were needed, so IMO, cleaning two or more LPs simultaneously is not recommended. That’s about it.
Clash of the Titans! The Doctor vs Taniel ( of Degritter Ultrasonic) in the comments of AXPONA 2019 Turntable Round Up
Saidi Audio's ultrasonic machine is not listed on their website: Record cleaner-Saidiaudio Co.,Ltd. Is this what you meant with the distributor dropped the product, that it's no longer made?
I didn’t post anything about the distributor dropping the product. Anyone who is interested in information about the product should contact the retailer I dealt with. He sells Saidi Audio TTs as well. Nice machines all.
I have experience with the Audio Desk and the Kirmuss (I own a Kirmuss). The problems with the Audio Desk is that it is a programmed cycle, it does not scrub/wet clean records better than cleaning with traditional wet RCM (Okki Nokki, Nitty Gritty, V.P.I., etc), and the ultrasonic cycle is too short for all records. I have cleaned a bunch of records on the Audio Desk (a friend's machine) and heard absolutely ZERO improvement over its initial state (cleaned thoroughly first on RCM). I HAVE gotten some improvement on these discs my running them through my Kirmuss several times after the Audio Desk failed to improve them. In particular, a noisy MFSL Pink Floyd AHM went from noisy to almost quiet with the Kirmuss. Yes, two machines are less elegant than the all-in-one Audio Desk, but the Audio Desk just doesn't work all that well IMHO. The two machines give you complete flexibility. That is just the performance aspect - the cost of the Audio Desk is just plain silly! Regarding the Kirmuss, more than two (2) slots is a complete waste. You cannot dry them properly. One at a time works best, but you can do two when staggered by 2 minutes or so. Three would be a juggling match and not worth rushing. An incomplete clean and dry on an RCM leads to a noisy surface - defeats the whole purpose. Anyway, stick with the original top, which works great. One more thing that I think continuous gets lost in all RCM discussions...good equipment (cartridge, table, PHONO PRE) is truly what creates the in-the-groove silence that we all crave. Spend the money on good equipment, and most new vinyl (easily 80% + of it) and even a lot of used vinyl is virtually silent right out of the sleeve.
I see now, I read "so the distributor let drop" as dropped the product, I'm on the same page now I even see that someone asked the same question I did right above your post
My anecdotal contribution... I agree with a lot of this. I'm a former AudioDesk owner. Cleaned my entire collection and then sold it. The thing about the AudioDesk & KL Audio which I didn't like is the fixed cleaning cycles, no frequency sweeping, no water heat, 1 LP at a time. Sure, they are nice AIO solutions but you can do a bit better with more flexibility if you go DIY. I investigated going to the Kirmuss but there's drawbacks to it as well. I decided to get a nice Crest 132KHz Ultrasonic tank and a CleanerVinyl pro system. The Crest is a industry standard ultrasonic and uses their patented third harmonic Piezoelectric Ceramic Transducers that as Crest states beat the cheap Chinese 40KHz systems. I'm able to heat my water (which is a huge deal) and I can run the cycles for as long as I desire. I can do 1-12 LP's at a time for great flexibility and efficiency. The integrated fan system in the CleanerVinyl makes the entire process very smooth with the best cleaning results I've ever experienced. YMMV.
Thanks for the info! But why would heating the water be beneficial? I would think being as close to room temperature would be ideal (equilibrium)?
Well, much the same way you're laundry machine, dishwasher all use heated water, heated water helps loosen debris. Even with the Kirmuss they advise to clean LP's with the water temp around 95 degrees Fahrenheit. You can't do that with the AD/KL, etc. A nice DIY ultrasonic system affords for much more flexibility and control. And if you ever experience a component failure you can just replace that piece which is nice.
I have been selling more and more Kirmuss RCMs, and am finding every buyer to like the function and effectiveness of it VERY much. Not one complaint yet. My special prices to Steve Hoffman members are $770 for the unit with 2 LP slots or $899 with 3 LP slots. So far, the few 3 LP slot owners have told me they would have been just as happy with a 2 LP slot top. It is too labor intensive to clean 3 dirty LPs at once. But mixing one or two NEW records with a dirty one works well, because the cleaning cycle times are different, so while you are drying a new record after one cycle, the old dirty ones are going through another cycle or two. If anyone has a Saidi ultrasonic machine, and would like to try a Kirmuss, just for about 2 weeks, let's do a temporary trade, and then both write about our opinions of the two.
As a newbie here I felt I had to chime in. I finally completed reading page 1 thru 34 over a couple of days and a few hours. My thanks to everyone who contributed, it's been a very interesting read. I pulled the trigger and purchased a Kirmuss cleaner on Saturday, as a local store here had them on sale and offered a demo cleaning of 2 lp's per customer. Unfortunately they have to order mine in as they were out of stock. I took in a couple of my vintage 70's MOFI/MFSL albums, Supertramps Crime of the Century as well as Chuck Mangione Feels so Good. I visually inspected and noted areas on the records where I knew there was an issue(my kids finger prints.....dont ask, I killed him...KIDDING). After cycle 1 there was a few spots with the "toothpaste" residue that were quite notable. After 3 complete cycles and using the goat brush and spray with a distilled water rinse the white spots were gone and the areas I had noted were clean. My only issue was the salesman doing a circular pattern with the goat brush and not going with the grooves as recommended here. I knew more from reading this thread than the salesman did. I can honestly say my 2 lp's look pristine and sound even better. I was reluctant at first, but after experiencing it first hand I'm sold on it, plus I dont have 3-5k to spend on other cleaning systems, I'd rather spend the extra coinage savings on buying more vinyl. The only other thing I have done, which someone recommended on this thread I did purchase a few of the Kinetronics anti static microfibre clothes for wiping and will be using my Okki Nokki specifically for vacuuming/drying only. Just to add, Mr. Krimuss is quite reachable, I emailed a question to the company and got a personal reply from him....a nice touch.
Just to add, in my email from Mr. Krimuss he did mention that Micheal Fremer will have a full review in the July edition of Stereophile if anyone is waiting on this full review.
