Haven't used them. I understand why people do-- to break surface tension of water to get into the grooves. The way I get around it is to use Reagent Grade 1 for the rinse water, a brush supplied by Monks which is pretty pliant and really put some water down as the platter is spinning; the Monks does have a tendency to fling water, but I keep some microfibre cloths handy to mop up the excess on the motor board (If you've seen any old Monks machines that have been heavily used, they often have rust). Then point nozzle vac dry. I think you could do the same with a wand type vacuum, using a separate vacuum wand and applicator for the rinse stage. The end goal for me is to not leave any residue on the record, even wetting agents. Apart from whatever sonic signature they may impart (and I haven't experimented with any current chemistry on this), I also want to minimize any potential chemical interaction with the inner sleeve. I'm doing this for posterity.
So, clean the lips. I used a fresh toothbrush when I had the VPI, kept rinsing the lips with pure water, etc. Not sure exactly how you manage that on the Nitty Gritty but there must be a way.... Won't you get more traction by doing the pre-clean/agitation (gentle scrub) off the machine? Sometimes, I am using a little pressure on the pre-clean- after any grit has been removed by a first wet cleaning.
For what its worth.... I'm going to head down to Crescendo Audio and see if they have a machine in house. Going to bring a couple records with and see how well it dose. It will be a nice day for a ride to Denver and check out this new (to me) audio shop.
After exchanging a couple emails with the DeGritter people, then giving a call to Charles Kirmuss to talk with him about his machine, I've put in an order for the latter. Charles was very generous with his time explaining to me his take on record cleaning. I don't pretend to understand much of the science, but I think at this price point and with a 2-year warranty it's a reasonable investment. I also just liked a lot of what he had to say and his evident passion for this endeavor.
I am very skeptical of the safety and frankly...the ability of all of the US machines vs. a good vacuum machine and the “proper” protocols needed with these machines. IME, utilizing a very good regimen of enzyme cleaner/deep clean/ super record wash and with care and precision, the results from a Vacuum are easily audible. Recently I AB’ed a KLaudio with my VPI 16.5 and my cleaning regimen....the KL was far far more convenient and a lot quicker. The result after listening to the same dupe LP after the US cleaning vs. the extensive vacuum cleaning...no appreciable difference. YMMV
When cleaning records on my Vacuum RCM, some new as well, I sometimes thought I was experiencing some better playback in terms of small dynamics and what not. I often just chalked it up as biased reward hearing from the cleaning and still do, but wouldnt it be funny if, I was actually hearing less of it ;^) That statement is a little lost on me by the way as it seems in conflict with itself. How can you not use listening to determine if those qualities disappear, or is he actually saying that the grooves deformed visually from the ocilloscope? In that case why is it not audible by anyone who uses Vacuum RCMs? This is why I need the papers.
@Leonthepro - you'll see conflicting information in the anecdotals--Harry Weisfeld, who founded VPI, claimed that the ultrasonic burnished the sound of the LPs and only after he did a follow up cleaning on one of his machines, did the full sound of the record reappear. (Obviously, since Harry makes a conventional vacuum machine, some attributed that to bias. I'm not suggesting that, but only reporting his view as one of several). Others claim that "veils lift" (the old audiophile trope) and they can hear more inner detail via the ultrasonic. I think cleaning fluids can leave a residue, no matter what method you use and that you have to remove them. In some cases, the residue could affect the sonics. I suspect the great majority of people buying ultrasonic machines do so for convenience, compared to the greater work involved in more conventional RCM cleaning. I certainly thought the same thing when I got an Audio Desk some years ago- plop a record in, push a button, done. Now, I take more time, don't rely solely on ultrasonic (except in the case of some new records) and get better results than either method alone by combining them. More work, more expense, but worth it, to me. I also think that some of the science and learning behind the ultrasonics is still unsettled. Among the different manufacturers, you'll see different claims regarding frequency, for example. Much of the learning on this goes back to the DIY'ers--so if you really want to drill down, read that monster thread on DIY Audio. There's a lot there to digest. Rush Paul's article summarized what he learned when he built his machine, but it still didn't capture all of the details, side excursions, mistakes, lessons learned and comparisons that came out of that crowd-sourced thread (though one guy in particular, bbftx, who started the thread, seemed to have a good handle on what he was doing).
Not really surprised to be honest. Although it's rare to read a comment like yours, I've made similar and others I have talked to felt the same in terms of Ultrasonic cleaning vs Vacuum based RCM cleaning. Many of the reviews concentrate on how well an URCM can clean a record but rarely do they compare the cleaning with a vacuum based RCM. I think it really comes down to personal preferences and budgets.
FWIW ive also seen little difference in records I've had cleaned on Audio Desk and KL machine vs what I've accomplished with my Nitty Gritty. BUT, after reading Bill Hart's article on cleaning with both in tandem, I decided to try and replicate his methods best I can. However, if Charles K. hadn't come out with an 800 dollar machine I'm not sure I would have gone in this direction so soon. Having had the Nitty Gritty for many years, I was already leaning toward purchasing some sort of new RCM. So even if the US doesn't blow me away, I think it will still be an upgrade of convenience if nothing else. Just my two cents.
I can answer the part of your question that I bolded - the unit has a drain valve (with a large on/off lever) and an included drain hose so you just attach the drain hose, turn the lever and the water in the tank drains out. My unit isn't near a sink so I have it drain in to the empty 1 gallon distilled water jugs that I used to fill the tank with. IMO opinion, I'm glad the unit doesn't have drying capabilities - using your example, if it pushed the price to near $1K I wouldn't have bought it. Likewise, it's just something else that can break, and honestly I prefer drying the albums by hand. I can see why others prefer something different though, just stating my preference.
I also am intrigued by the hand drying. I was also told they specifically did not create a drying capability because they felt it could cause more contamination (you would have to ask Charles K for a more detailed explanation of this, but it made sense as far as I could tell). Either way, yes, I'm glad to leave out drying if only for the reasons you just mentioned.
Since you have a Nitty Gritty I'd keep hold of that and use that for drying. It'll likely be a much better option that hand drying. I'm not sure what contaminants you need to worry about if the drying cycle was inside the Ultrasonic, but using the Nitty Gritty you have little to worry about IMO. But you know your machine better than I do
Yes I think the price point of this machine is very good. It's more expensive than a DIY version but not that much more expensive and it looks much nicer. It's also an all in one unit so no need to have a separate tank and rotating assembly. If it was available when I put together my set up I would've considered it for sure. Since you were already thinking of an upgrade it's worth trying this machine out.
Hearing is believing! So today I went to Denver to see if this system is really that good or just hype. I arrived at Crescendo Audio around noon time and talked with Adam about the system and how it works. He emptied the machine and put in new distilled water along with the alcohol and turned it on to warm up. While that was going on we chatted about my system and some of the components they had...... nice store for sure. I brought a couple albums along to see if I could hear a difference before and after. We played the first album...... Myles Davis - Dark Magus - MOVLP1454 - 180 gram - 2016 side B cuz its one of my fav sides and albums. The other one I brought was Linda Ronstadt - Simple Dreams - Nautilus Superdisc that has always been a little noisy. Both of these albums I bought used less than a year ago. We put both records in the RCM for 5 min cycle. First out was the Davis. Adam dried the record and put on the antifungal and brushed it around just like in the video. Time to give it a spin to see if we could hear and difference. When we played it the first time you could hear everything that was going on but after the cleaning things came alive, more defined you could hear all the instruments and where they were on stage (live album). The Linda Ronstadt was next. Because it was noisy we washed it for two 5 min cycles then put the antifungal on. I have cleaned this album with a Spin Clean a few times with little change. After two cycles the album came alive just like the Davis. Linda's voice was more pronounced instead of being muddled like it was before the cleaning. Like the Davis all of the instruments were much more defined and alive it was a good change but still had just a little noise but not like before. I'm sure another wash might just get rid of the rest. Was I impressed with this system? Yes. Seeing and hearing this system first hand just not in a video from a trade show proved that it works as well as they say. Did I buy one? You betcha! They are out of stock right now but should be here (Denver) in about a week. This system is only $100.00 more than the VIP - 16.5 Record Cleaning Machine and for what its worth........ the Miles Davis was cleaned on one before it was shipped to me.
I have noticed this effect too with ultrasonic cleaning, more definition, clearer highs and more presence overall.
I have been on the fence about buying a system like this because other RCM like this one are very expensive. At the price of this one I felt it was well worth the money. Let us know what you think when you get yours and I will post here when mine gets here. It will be good to hear what you both think of the process and how much improvement you get.
Yes, he put it on after the process. I've had a Spin Clean for a number of years and it works ok but nothing like the Kirmuss. It brought the music alive like nothing I've tried before.
That seems sort of weird, dont see why you would put something on a newly cleaned record. As a side question, did you ever clean your spin clean?
Bluesaddict, thanks for the review, I too have the Nautilus Linda and it also has more noise than I would like. I will continue to monitor this thread as more and more people seem to be looking at this machine. I am still confused by how you dry it as it comes out of the RCM all wet, I assume, looking for more data on this. my local high end record store (I know how rare that statement is) allows me to clean 4-5 records on his KlAudio system which takes 5-10 minutes per record depending on how dirty they are. I don't buy used records so I know the provenence of all of my records but some very good records, Nautilus and Mofi and others do seem to come dirty out of the box/sleeve. thanks to all for a good thread and I am looking for more stories about how this system works
@Leonthepro He has a lot if info on his site KirmussAUDIO - Ultrasonic Record Cleaner, Audio Cables that I'm sure can explain it much better than I can. From what I got from Adam was that it helps keep mold and such from getting on the record. Where I live in Colorado we don't see much because of our altitude (4980 feet) and low humidity. Those at or near sea level are more inclined to get molds and such so it is for protection. As far as the Spin Clean, Yes I cleaned it (new distilled water and cleaning solution every time I would clean records) and also put new brushes in at leased 3 to 4 times a year. Don't get me wrong it dose clean records....... I could see what came off at the bottom of the tank after cleaning records that I buy used. This system dose a much better job.
