If you read Neal's paper (which I have) it really does an excellent job in giving someone a complete overview of the various processes and fluids and chemistry and safety and effectiveness. Trust me, there is NOTHING left out there I replied mentioning this above, but the iSonic tank people (which tank Kirmuss uses) state specifically NOT to use DI water due to it being 'Corrosive' Distilled would be an equitable replacement. If you examine the exchanges between myself and Neal above, you can easily glean the proportions and chemistry for each step, so that would perhaps be a nice, quick way to review many of the things I've asked him. They apply to what you are asking. However you end up choosing to do it, based upon what you asked, if you want to reduce it down to a good US cleaning with chemistry, and then just a simple purified water rinse (either laboratory regrade or distilled) either with your vacuum OR drip dry, I think that would be basically it if you want to keep it 'simple' You asked about new records or perhaps ones that are really clean to start. Then this simple 2-step process (which is basically what I do and describe above) should be sufficient. Once you have the basic chemistry that you choose in your US tank, then decide on the rinse step. Either vacuum or drip dry. I will say that using the EXTREMELY simple plastic $9 tub above makes the rinse a lovely simple process, and 'Simple' is my middle name!
Please put this issue with water in perspective - if you read Chapter VII Table IV, you should see that there are different qualities of water. Purified (Type 4) water can be prepared by single distillation or single step demineralization (see VII.5 for discussion of resin). However, as you move to higher quality water, such as Pure (Type 2) water, the resistivity and TDS gets better; but it takes more processing to achieve this quality. Up to Pure (Type 2) water, the risk of the water being corrosive is remote (Navy has Type 2 demineralized water systems made of CRES/(stainless steel and does not have corrosion issues). Otherwise, demineralized water will tend to have a lower pH closer to 6, whereas distilled water will be closer to 8; but I can tell you the Navy considered pH 6-8 acceptable; and it has been only very rare occasions have I seen demin water less than 6.0. HOWEVER, as @hammr7 said, when you get to Ultra Pure (Type 1) - its so pure that it can be very corrosive for the reasons @hammr7 said; and as stated in the book is used to clean semi-conductors; but also as stated it takes many steps to achieve such as triple distilled. Also, when Ultra Pure water is exposed to the air, it sucks up CO2 which forms carbonic acid causing the pH to drop some and ionic impurities forming; so it does not stay Ultra Pure for very long.
So I have read much of the essay and have a pretty good idea of how I plan to proceed. However, I do have one question. I got a bottle of tergitol and returned the triton X. I want to use tergitol and IPA in the bath. I will be doing a final rinse step using my vacuum machine (which I will also be using in my preclean step). The paper says to use 0.1%-0.15% tergitol and 2.5% IPA if using it as a preclean, and 0.01%-0.015% if using for a final clean. That is obviously a big difference. Since I am rinsing, should I use the preclean concentration or the final clean concentration? Also, that seems like a lot of IPA. Kirmuss recommends 40ML of 70% IPA (28mL actual alcohol). 2.5% would be 150 ML. Any additional input here would be helpful.
To start - use the final clean concentration specified XIV.10 which is 0.01%-0.015% Tergitol. Even though you are rinsing, this lower concentration will be much easier/faster to rinse. Also, since you will be pre-cleaning with some other process there will be some carry-over from the pre-clean process; and after pre-clean, the final clean process is designed for the 'final polish' - you want mostly wetting; and just a touch of detergency - you should not need a lot of detergency. HOWEVER, if as you work your process, you are not satisfied with the results, you can increase (2X, 3X) the final clean concentration and dial in your process. Your pre-clean process may not work that well, or the UCM efficiency/power is low; so you boost the cleaner concentration and exposure time to balance. But, as the cleaner concentration increases, you 'may' need more rinse water. FYI - for the Degritter, the concentrations are even less. Kirmuss 40 mL 70% = 28 mL/6500 mL = ~0.5%. Now look at Figures 32 (BP) & 33 (ST). What does 0.5% get you???? Now look at what 2.5% gets you, the BP drops ~10C (but there may be no change in BP if surfactant concentration goes too high - see para VIII.8.4) and ST drops ~14 dynes/cm; and now there is enough IPA to assist with soil roll-up Figure 34. The concept of soil roll-up/swell and the what the IPA + Tergitol blend should achieve gets into the science of micro-emulsions and oil/water interfacial tension which is different from surface tension and are not discussed in the book.
OK so I’ve spent a lot of time tinkering and this is my current process. This has been done on new/like new records, so nothing too dirty. However, I am still getting black gunk on my stylus after a side is played on some (but not all) records. I can’t determine what is causing this; is it gunk that was deep in the grooves but I haven’t gotten it all the way out yet? Or is it residue from the Tergitol that I am not managing to remove? My current process: 1) 5 minute prewash in Kirmuss Ultrasonic. The ultrasonic solution is .01% tergitol and 2.5% IPA 2) remove from tank, the record is coming out wet so I vacuum both sides but not completely dry. 3) scrub both sides with 1% Alconox solution using Sleeve City goat hair brush. Vacuum to nearly dry 4) back into the US for 12-15 minutes 5) remove and rinse through spin clean with distilled water 6) vacuum 7) rinse with DI water using MoFi brush 8) vacuum dry This is more intensive than I’d like, but I’d be fine with that if it produced amazing results. But currently it is not doing that. The records still have some very light ticks here and there (maybe these can never be removed), and most disturbing of all the stylus is coming out dirty. Any ideas/tips?
Well, these other guys would be more qualified than I am to guide you here, but just a couple of worthless 2 cents from what I observe. And, this doesn't explain the residue on your stylus; that is rather mysterious. Firstly, if these are new or nearly new records, in my lowly and wretched opinion you do not have to do all those steps. I don't want to impose my process on you, but for one thing I don't think you need the step with the Liquinox. That is only for very dirty, used records as a 1st heavy prewash. So, honestly for new or nearly new records I would highly recommend ditching that step. I would think that all you would really need is time in the US tank and then a good rinse/vacuum, period (that's what I do for all my new/near new records and they all come out pristine) So, in the case with new records, I personally would let them spin initially for 10-20 minutes (whatever you feel is right) as a full cycle in the US tank and then take them out while wet and rinse thoroughly with the DI and if you want, the brush, and vacuum. That really should be it. I can't imagine what residue is showing up on your stylus though...
You have too many steps, and you want to move from more concentrated cleaner to less concentrated cleaner. Also, no need to vacuuming after every step, leaving the record wet protects it from the ambient environment. Try this much simpler process: 1) Pre-Clean: Scrub both sides with 1% Alconox solution using Sleeve City goat hair brush. How are you doing this? 2) Rinse: Spin clean with distilled water 3) Final Clean: Kirmuss Ultrasonic. The ultrasonic solution is .01% tergitol and 2.5% IPA. What is the rpm of the Kirmuss; set time so that the there is a whole number for rotations. 4) Rinse with distilled water & vacuum dry. What vacuum RCM are you using? How clean is your MoFi brush? You should not be seeing anything on the stylus, but remember the MoFi brush pad has an adhesive backing and my MoFi brush (which I no longer use) the rubber started to breakdown. I use the Record Dr brush Amazon.com: Record Doctor Clean Sweep Brush: Home Audio & Theater. But, you can use the Sleeve City brush for rinsing - as I say para XIII.3 If using vacuum-RCM for a pre-clean step, and if using the same brush for pre and final clean, rinse the record brush separately before any follow-on step to ensure pre-cleaner is not on the brush. In this instance first rinsing with tap water to remove the cleaner and then a quick spray with DIW or dip in a bowl filled with DIW can work. Follow-up with answers to the above and I will fill-in with more details.
1) I spray the Alconox in a few lines from the center of the record to the edge. Then use the sleeve city brush to scrub it into the grooves (going the direction of the grooves). 2. I couldn’t find an exact RPM spec but I just timed a record spinning and one full revolution was 23 seconds; roughly 2.6 rpm 3) my RCM is a record doctor V (which I kind of hate so less vacuuming is definitely a plus) 4) the MoFi brush pad is fairly new. I rinse with tap water and then distilled water before and after each clean. I also have spare pads (and a total of 3 MoFi brushes) and can switch out the pad with a new one if needed. I look forward to your reply. In addition, two questions came to mind reading your post. First, between steps 1 and 2, if I don’t vacuum, won’t I be contaminating the water in the spin clean. Second, when I pull the record from the US bath, there is a significant amount of cleaning solution on it. If I don’t vacuum, the “rinse” will have a decent amount of surfactant in it, would it not? Do I need to double rinse?
The inherent limit with the Record Dr RCM is that its a bottom vacuum so its good to remove fluid only. Top mounted vacuums are much more flexible with what they can do. I want to stream-lime this process for you so its not so cumbersome. Two Options: Option One: 1) If necessary Pre-Clean: Scrub both sides with 0.25 to 0.5% Alconox solution using the Sleeve City Brush. Light rinse MoFi brush and DIW. 2) Final Clean: Kirmuss Ultrasonic. The ultrasonic solution is .01% tergitol and 2.5% IPA. At 2.6 rpm operate 5 min (13 rev) or 10 min (26 rev). 3) Rinse with distilled water in Spin Clean 4) Vacuum Dry with Record Dr RCM. Or, Option Two: 1) If necessary Pre-Clean: Use Spin-Clean with 0.25 to 0.5% Alconox solution. You can try using the MoFi brush light rinse with DIW or move the record direct to final-clean. 2) Final Clean: Kirmuss Ultrasonic. The ultrasonic solution is .01% tergitol and 2.5% IPA. At 2.6 rpm operate 5 min (13 rev) or 10 min (26 rev). 3) Vacuum Dry with Record Dr RCM. Option One has a rinse before vacuum dry; Option Two does not. The final clean Tergitol at 0.01% = 100 ppm. When you pull the record from the Kirmuss very little detergent is actually on the record, and with vacuum dry very little will be left on the record. For either option, there will be some carry-over of Alconox to the Kirmuss, but its diluted by the large volume of the Kirmuss tank; and unless the record is dirty you should not need the pre-clean step as @latheofheaven said. I would try Option One first with no pre-clean.
So I tried option one, both with and without the pre clean, and am still finding gunk on the stylus. I am inspecting the stylus with a loupe after each side and then cleaning the stylus. It is not difficult to clean and the gunk is gone when inspecting after cleaning the stylus. I can’t for the life of me figure out what is going on here. I have not used the MoFi brush and replaced the felt lips on the Record Doctor to ensure this isn’t adhesive collecting on the record. Since the result is the same, I don’t think that is the case. Am I doing something wrong creating my solution? Using a pipette I am adding just over 0.5mL of Tergitol to a half gallon or so of distilled water (0.01% of 6.5 liters is .65mL correct?). I also add 150mL of 99% IPA. I gently swirl that to mix. I then pour that along with more distilled water in the Kirmuss tank until it reaches the max line. The way I see it, the gunk can only be two things. Either it is A) residual detergent from the US bath, or B) is dirt and grease that has been partially lifted from the groove but not fully. With the concentration of detergent so low, I’m leaning towards B. The Kirmuss machine runs at 35kHz. Maybe it needs the manual agitation used in the Kirmuss process to fully lift the gunk from the grooves?
That is a mystery alright... If you are cleaning new or near new albums though, I cannot see where it is residue from the albums, unless they all happened to be pressed at the same place and something went wrong there. If you are doing a final distilled rinse/vacuum, I cannot imagine what could possibly be left on them. My method is so streamlined that I run them through the tank, both new and somewhat older but still fairly clean albums, and then let them do a couple of revolutions in the distilled rinse tank as my picture shows above, and I just let them air dry, and they all come out completely pristine. Weird... I mean, there IS the occasional one that has some stubborn noise still in it and it needs the deeper cleaners and agitation and a rinse/vacuum. But, those are fairly uncommon.
Here is your cleaning solution: Tergitol =0.5 mL/(3785 mL/gal)(0.5) = (0.00026)(100%) = 0.0264% IPA = 150 mL/(3785 mL/gal)(0.5) = (0.079)(100%) = 7.9% The above 1892 mL is then diluted with DIW to 6500 mL = 1:3.43, so for Tergitol = 0.264%/3.43 = 0.0077%; and another way to look is 0.5 mL/6500 mL = 0.0077% so the math is correct. You are light with the Tergitol, its a wetting solution but not much more - so up your mix from 0.5 mL to 0.7 mL or 0.75 mL or go to 1.0 mL. For the IPA, when you dilute the 7.9% to 6500 mL = 7.9%/3.43 = 2.3% - this is close enough. When you prepare your solution - you want to add the Tergitol first and mix that well before adding the IPA - read para XIV.7.e. Even if you did not do this, once being sonicated, its going to mix. Given the solution you are using which is only 77 ppm (77 mg/L) of Tergitol if you left 2 mL on the record to dry (assuming no rinse) you would leave (77 mg/1000 mL) = (0.077 mg/mL)(2 mL) = 0.154 mg spread across the record = 0.154 mg/ft which by Table XIII is a film thickness of 0.0154 microns. You cannot see this with a loop, maybe a SEM, so I am comfortable saying that the residue you are seeing is very unlikely to be from the Tergitol. So, lets investigate elsewhere: What are your cleaning - are theses new records or used records? Used records may look new, but who knows what cleaner was used prior. If used, you want the Tergitol to be at least 0.015% (~1 mL/6500 mL) and do not be afraid to go to 0.025% (~1.5 mL/6500 mL - close enough) to get more detergency. This is fine with you doing a fine final DIW with your Spin-Clean. Has the Kirmuss tank been used with other cleaning agents - is the tank clean? If you spray DIW on the tank (when empty & dry) does it bead-up or wet. If it beads-up, wipe out the tank with just IPA and a lint free cloth/wipe. When stainless steel is clean, a spray of water should wet the surface. Is the Kirmuss rotating device clean? Does it look visually clean? How much time did you use for cleaning? When you play your records, do you use any kind of brush/spray before play? We are going to get this right; sometimes theses processes need a bit tweaking to dial-in.
Note that new records even the best MoFi One Step will produce some debris on 1st play - cleaned or otherwise. Sometimes what you are seeing is microscopic burrs that are being essentially burnished/removed/polished from the record during the first few plays. In this case, is the 'residue' you are seeing still evident after the 2nd play? You say that under the loop (I assume 60X) you are seeing black residue - can you categorize the residue - is it dust-like, or is it oil/grease-type? Do you hear anything different?
The records are new QRP and RTI pressings. I have not cleaned the tank. This evening I will drain and see how a spray of distilled water reacts. The rotating device looks clean and only contacts the very edge of the record. It is rubber so I can clean it but IPA may dry it out? Not sure there. I used a 10 minute cycle. I will carbon brush and/or use an air blaster (the rubber type the LoC uses) if I see hair or dust on the record. I am playing them pretty shortly after cleaning so there is little to no visible stuff on the records. I appreciate your help. I am hooked on the sound I am getting from the US cleaned records. Besides the light noise that I believe is coming from whatever is gunking the stylus, the sound is so crisp and clear. A real noticeable improvement from my previous regimen which was just L’Art du Son and a pure water rinse on the Record Doctor. The improvement in sound has me determined to figure out a way to make this work without the ridiculous Kirmuss 30+ minute restoration process.
I am still seeing it on a second play, but less so. I believe the loupe is 20x but not positive there. I will have to double check when I get home. It looks greasy/gummy. One record had a ball of lint in addition to the gummy stuff but that was an anomaly which I assumed was just from something falling on it during play
It's your solution. Use the Kirmuss with Distilled water only and then completely dry. You should have no gunk on stylus after play. Probably too much Tergitol in the mix. That would create a buildup of gunk.
Depending on how you use the carbon brush - you may be leaving debris - "VI.8.a CARBON FIBER: A very fine [Ø 0.000283] (~7.6 microns) fiber of 95% pure carbon. Fiber has a tensile strength of 575 ksi, a tensile modulus of 35 msi, and an electrical resistivity of 0.00055 Ohms in. Popular in light touch to non-contact grounding brushes due to its high conductivity. Not recommended for uses with high flexural requirements since carbon fiber has low flex fatigue resistance and can break off rather easily.” This implies that carbon brushes should only be used to just lightly touch the record. Also, the carbon fiber diameter is small enough to deeply penetrate the record groove which could lead to fiber break-off creating particles instead of removing particles.". Instead of play immediately after cleaning - let the record rest (sleeved) for some time or just let is spin for a few minutes before play. Even though you think its dry, there is some moisture remaining and the record has been for want of a better word abused during the cleaning process, but you should not be seeing oily/greasy residue. Do you use a platter mat? and if so which one and is it clean?
Tergitol in a 1 gallon jug... I would experiment starting with 10 drops and find out how much wetting agent you need. You want as little as possible. For example in a homebrew solution for a 480ml bottle my breakdown is; 384ml reagent water, 96ml IPA, 2 drops tergitol, 2 drops 4X dawn dishsoap. That's it. Works great...
No mat, directly on the platter which I clean regularly with one of the rubber rollers an an air blaster. I use the carbon brush lightly and some of the records have sat sleeved for 30+ minutes and still leave residue. I do not think it is any “after care” stage causing this for the reasons above as well as I used the same with my previous vacuum regimen and did not have this issue.
I had some of the same experience using the Kirmuss as advised in the directions, though not to this extent. Took 5+ applications of surfactant to disappear. I truly believe it is dirt and grime that is softened but not removed. I could be wrong. I am using 0.5mL which is roughly 10 drops to the ~1.7 gallons of fluid in the tank. Definitely a low concentration. The 2 drops you are using in 480mL is much higher
Also, I don't know if this is important Neil, but the iSonic tank I bought (same as the Kirmuss) says specifically not to us DIW in the tank because it is too corrosive. You of course would know best. Perhaps distilled would be better...?
Referring to Chapter VII, Type IV Purified water can be produced from distilled or demimeralized. However, Type I Ultra-Pure Water that can be produced by triple distillation or multiple stages of demineralization can be corrosive to stainless steel; with one caveat - once Ultra-Pure water is exposed to air it does not stay ultra-pure for very long.
Please, do not take this the wrong way, but the above says two different things - the 1st quote says you did not have this problem previously - was that before using ultrasonics? The 2nd quote says when you first started using the Kirnuss it took 5+ applications to get a 'new?' record clean? The records that you are now cleaning are they brand-new, never before cleaned? How often do you drain the Record Doctor spent cleaning fluid - Record_Doctor_V_Users_Guide.pdf (audioadvisor.com)? The Record Dr vents from the bottom so with the record hanging over the sides its not outside the realm of possibility that some exhaust is depositing back on the record. Check the surface on which the Record Dr vacuum RCM sits and see if by chance there is any kind of residue. Check the cleanliness of the SpinClean unit and make sure if using for rinse that its initially free of any cleaner - if you fill the SpinClean with just tap-water and let it sit for a 15 min and agitate a bit and then collect a sample 50-100 mL in a clean glass container, cap and shake. If there is no cleaner residue it should not produce any stable foam. What cartridge are you using and ~how many hrs on the stylus? RTI and QRP are quality pressing facilities and there should be no post-pressing residue - some particles yes, but I have not heard of anyone seeing what you are seeing post ultrasonic cleaning.
I'm going to throw this in here, although I haven't read the whole chapter on this user's problem. Doesn't the Kirmuss spinner have some sort of lipped surface for the record(s) to slot into? Is there any sort of fabric or other material in this part of the machine that may be contaminating the records as part of the ultrasonic process being used?
