Klipsch and horn speakers?

Klipsch?

I know there are some Klipsch horn-speaker aficionados at this forum. I was interested in the Heresy or some other smaller design.

-Any comments on the Heresy or other Klipsch designs?

-Is there a characteristic Klispch sound?

 

i have L-55's and absolutely love them.

 

I've had Klipsch since the 1970s, and wouldn't consider anything else. I have a pair of Klipschorns, and a pair of Heresies for my other system.

You will find that a lot of Klipsch owners are devoted to their speakers, more so than most speaker makes.

Paul W. Klipsch, who died very recently at age 98, was a legendary figure in audio throughout his career, wrote dozens of seminal papers, and was noted for being outspoken. His favorite retort to many audio claims was succinct: "********." He frequently wore a pin with that word on it.

There is kind of a division in Klipsch fans. There are those who swear by the Vintage series, which are the speakers Paul designed himself: Klipschorn, Belle Klipsch, La Scala, Cornwall, and Heresy. Then there are tons of models made after he didn't actively run the company anymore. Some of these Paul had a hand in designing or advising the engineers, and some he didn't. A lot of people buy and like these.

Klipsch is very popular now with home theatre and computer speakers, but I'm not familiar with any of them. I'm familiar with the Vintage, horn speakers. They are a great match with tube amps.

The Heresy is the least efficent of the vintage line, at 98dB/watt/meter. The Klipschorn is the most efficient, at 104db/watt/meter. You don't need much power at all to drive these very loud. But the nice thing is, they also sound balanced when played quietly.

Anyway, the Heresy is an excellent speaker, and the smallest of the vintage ones.

Klipsch has an excellent forum with tens of thousands of posts in their archives. www.klipsch.com

 

Thanks, but can you describe what you like about your speakers? What does it offer that other speakers didn't?

 

I'm not very good at describing why I like something.

But my first exposure to Klipschorns was at a friend's house, who liked to play his records loud. He played them so loud that neighbors several times called the police.

He was playing these records a lot louder than I would have ever dreamed of, and I didn't get a headache. After several hours of listening, I didn't get a headache. My guess is that this was because they have very low levels of intermodulation distortion.

They never felt like they were taxed or strained in the slightest, just effortless at any volume. But, as I said, they sound great at very quiet levels as well. I can listen all day and never get worn out.

I like big speakers a lot. I know this is almost the exact opposite of the LS3/5A, so whether it is a sound you would care for or not, I can't say. I really like your speakers as well, and was very very close to buying them, but went for a different approach.

I listen to a lot of symphonies nowadays, and I just don't get much pleasure out of hearing an orchestra through little speakers, even when they're as excellent as the LS3/5A.

I still remember a review of the Klipschorn I read a long time ago. The reviewer was comparing it to some other speakers and actually thought it was bass-shy! Then he rigged up some equipment so that he had a microphone outside, feeding into various speakers. Somebody slammed a car door and he heard it through the Klipschorn and it sounded like a car door. He repeated it for several other speakers and what he initially had thought was better bass turned out to be unnatural boomy thumping, exaggerated car door slams, if you like.

There are thousands and thousands of speakers I've never heard, but I have no desire to audition them. I'm happy.

 

Horn loaded speakers MUST be auditioned ahead of time IMO! They are highly colored (sometimes in a good way, sometimes in a bad way), and are not everyone's cup of tea!

The only horn speakers I've ever heard that have a neutral sound are Steve's Tannoys.

 

Thanks for the insights, Paul. I find valuble since you are familiar with my speakers.

Hmm, I may have to expand my list of speakers. Can you expand on what you mean by colored? Which Tannoys are you refering to?

 

Yes indeed, by all means people should audition speakers before buying.

In the final analysis, accuracy isn't everything. Steve has mentioned lots of times that he listens to neutral systems when he's working, but that for pleasure he listens to systems that he likes, that get him involved with the music.

Now, what kind of speakers grab somebody is purely an individual matter. I've never heard Tannoys, but I know there are people who have who hate them. And there are millions of people who hate horn speakers of any kind. It's not that they are right or wrong, it's all just opinions. I doubt if anybody sets out to make a speaker that they know will sound awful, so there's thousands of different conceptions of what constitutes good sound.

As far as the Rogers, if it were me, I'd keep them instead of going to Heresies, but not instead of Klipschorns (which are too big for your requirements). Unless you want Heresies for a second system, which would be fine and give you a very different sound.

 

Colored=Not neutral. Hold your hands over your mouth like a megaphone and speak. It is sort of like what a horn does to vocal sounds. On SOME recordings it sounds good (the recordings that are lacking in midrange tones), on other recordings (that have too many midrange tones), that "horny" sound will kill you dead like a bullet.

It all depends on what YOU like! But remember, once you have that horn sound built in to your system, you can't turn it off with the flick of a switch.

I love to listen to horn systems on certain types of music. On other types, it sounds unmusical and hard. If you play some "pink noise" through your system, and then switch in some horn speakers, you will clearly hear the megaphone effect in the upper midrange. It could sound great on a mellow saxophone, but not on a trumpet.

 

Come on, now! Listening to good horn speakers does not sound remotely like listening to something through a megaphone.

 

I find that the sound through horns like mine are very dependent upon what drives them. I've used everything from pure SS to pure tube. I've found that the "unmusical hard sound" you refer to usually comes when driven with "not so great quality" Solid State components. I'ts taken me over twenty years to reach the satisfaction level I'm at now with these speakers. As far as a typical "horn sound" I dunno. When improperly driven they exhibited some of what you describe above but, in my experience it is drastically diminished or eliminated entirely with synergistic matching of components.
I've had many people describe what they thought my system would sound like in exactly the terms that you have above before listening to a good recording through it only to say they were completely surprised to discover afterward that the sound was nothing like they envisioned.

I will say one thing though, Klipschorns epitomize the computer term GIGO (garbage in garbage out). If you feed them a bad recording signal that's what you are going to hear. On the other hand, give them a good to really great recording and it becomes an experience that is thoroughly involving and enjoyable. These speakers aren't "voiced" to a tepid mid ground so that nothing will ever sound too bad, and, in the process also ensuring that nothing will ever sound truly great.

I guess you must have figured out by now that I sort of like my speakers. I urge anyone interested to listen to speakers like mine properly driven then make up your own mind. Would I trade them for something else?

 

Here's Steve's stuff.

-1967 Tannoy Gold 15" Lancaster
- Kochel 200' horns
-Lowther Medallions

I woulds like to hear the Medallions and some other horn speakers when I fly up to the Bay Area this fall. This seems the best bet, although I could just spring for a pair of Heresys to get the ball rolling...hmmm. I guess the Medallions are not horn speakers per se.

 

I have a pair of 1976 Klipsch Cornwalls, and just love their sound. They do take some getting used to, probably because of the horn midrange and tweeters, but once I got used to their sound, I was hooked. However, as Khorn mentioned, they are very dependant on the source that is played throught them. To me, they seem to bring out the flaws in imperfect recordings, but on good to great recordings they seem to improve the sound in a very good way. Decent live recordings really sound excellent through the Cornwalls.



Ed Hurdle
HeavyDistortion

 

Hold your hands over your mouth like a megaphone and speak.

Holy mackeral, how many times have I heard this from someone who doesn't own horn speakers?

First, let's hypothesize that the listener is in front of the horn instead of behind it.

Second, let's imagine that the hands are mathematically contoured to exacting flair rates.

Third, let's pretend that the hands are about 4' square.

Now, imagine cupping your hands over your mouth and talking. See?

Yes, I own Klipschorns, and yes, I think they could be the best speaker in the world, given the proper room. Therein lies the rub, having a good room with good corners. Mine is good, and has the benefit of about a million tons of St. Paul clay surrounding the cement walls. Holds in the LF pretty good.

To me the benefit of horn speakers is the lower distortion. Given that you need a voice coil, the dichotomy of the speaker diaphragm is the problem. You need both stability and lightness. Theoretically, infinite stability and infinite lightness. Compression drivers as in horn speakers come closest to solving this dilemma.

I think horn speakers got a bad rap by exactly the stuff that was described above, people thinking they need to play really loud to get the benefit of horns. Edgar Winter's 'Frankenstein' played on Klipschorns using Phase Linear SS amps is the classic indoctrination that people get with horns.

I used to do this myself, amuse myself with how 2 watts RMS would make the speakers get so loud I could go outside and put my hand on the chimney, and feel the bricks vibrate to the music. Surely couldn't be INSIDE when that was happening.

Anyways, to me, all the 'paper pusher' speakers I've heard sound muddy and indistinct. Of course, I haven't heard them all and probably haven't heard yours.

Pairing horn speakers with SET amplifiers, you get magic. The microdynamics that a good output tube, like a 2A3 or 300B, can produce along with the low distortion of the horn speaker, well, if you haven't heard it, then you haven't heard it. Be happy you haven't or you would be unsatisfied with what you have until you replaced it all.

Of course, YMMV, this is one man's opinion, yada yada yada.

 

I think there's a huge difference between a "folded" horn cabinet like a lowther uses to amplify the bass coming off the back of the cone, a tractrix horn on a driver, and a corner horn that uses the corners of the room as part of the "horn." I'm not saying that one is better or worse, but how many people have perfect corners with 6 feet of uninterupted wall coming out from the corner for that a corner horn to operate properly? Not many I suspect.

I heard my 2A3 SET amps on a pair of Altec Voice of the Theatre Velencia's a few months ago when a local guy saw me post in the Pi Speaker forum over on audioasylum. These are not cornerhorns, but the tractrix horn on the midrange/treble driver was 18 inches across I believe and they crossed over at 800 hz. I wouldn't call the bass the best I've never heard but the midrange magic made it sound like Diana Krall was in the room and I thought there was a great soundstage. I played Steve's remaster of Hotel California and felt like I could reach into the speaker and grab the guitar out of Joe Walsh's hands. I could be very happy with a speaker like this but I live in an apartment so its completely impractical.

Then we listened on a Musical Fidelity 30 watt solid state amp and the sound became kinda shrill and honky, and all the "magic" was lost IMHO.

My point is rather moot because if Pigmode is looking for a Klipsch Heresy or Cornwall sized speaker then he's looking for a much smaller speaker than a corner horn or the Altecs. I'm wondering what epiphany brought him to looking at Klipsch? Are you just looking for a higher efficiency speaker?

When I was shopping for a speaker earlier this year for my amps I was definately told to avoid the Heresy II's. They have a driver thats very different from the original Heresy's (Heresies?) and the impedance at the resonant frequency increases much more than their older designs which causes boomy one note bass in low watt tube amps. I've also found out that a lot of Klipsch owners do a lot of DIY tweaking to the crossovers of older designs to get a sound they like so that might not be for you. There is a forum over on the Klipsch web site for that.

Here is a thread with one of the first posts I made when I was looking for speakers for a low powered tube amp:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=10835&highlight=klipsch#post10835

Please ignore the part where I demonstrated my complete ignorance about Magneplanars.

 

My requirements are for higher efficiency speakers to fit a smaller room. I ordered a Fi preamp so the logical extension (in my own twisted mind) is to look into a full SET based system including speakers. I am not really tied to Klipsch but have an open mind. Thanks for the info on the Heresys.

Any thought on the Medallion? It would be affordable if I built my own cabs.

P.S. I have zero intentions of selling my LS3/5a!

 

I wound up with a pair of Pi Series 2's from www.pispeakers.com for my 2A3 amp. Its about the size of some Heresy's but only 10 inch woofer instead of 12. The Lowther's were out of my price range and still are.

You might want to checkout the forum there (there's also a link from audioasylum). You might not wind up buying from there but I sure learned a lot in those audioasylum forums about SET amps and speakers that go with them. The guy who runs the "company" is very passionate about what he does and he's been doing it for over 20 years. He's also not going to try to sell you something you don't want because because he has a day job thats doing quite well and unrelated to the speaker building.

One more thing... He sells bass reflex, folded horns & corner horns. All high efficiency design in the aproximent efficiency as the Heresy's.

 

The Klipschorns bass cabinets are folded horns that use the corners of the room as an "extension" of the horn. The "folded horn" cabinet is the equivalent of a 12' horn therefore the complexity in construction.

 

I have been a Klipshorn addict since I first heard a pair played with an old McIntosh tube amp in 1972. I'm running mine with a pair of McIntosh Mc7270s that are bridged for mono and pushing 540 watts per channel. 10 minutes at half-volume and your sense of balance is shot.

I love these speakers. They sound incredible no matter how loud or how low you play them. They are CLEAN.

I do not have an ideal setup for corner horns at the present time. One side of each speaker is against window glass, and I've got 15 feet of wall unit between the pair. They STILL sound good. I've set out to replace these a number of times, because of the huge footprint, but have never found anything I felt came close for under $15,000. I bought my K-horns used for $1100 20 years ago, and they're still going strong.

The La Scallas were originally designed to be used as a center speaker with the K-horns. They have the same tonality, and the horns are identical. They do not produce quite as much bass, because although the bass horns are folded, they do not use the corners to extend the horn size. They are still excellent speakers.

The Hereseys are OK, but the K-horns and La Scallas are the Klipsh models that truly shine. I had a friend who had a pair of La Scallas in an 8x11 room. If I were you, I'd try to find a pair of La Scallas and fit them into the room somehow. You can always use them as tables.

Keep in mind that the K-horns were designed before solid state, and the La Scallas are based on the same design. To get the best from these speakers you need tube amps, or very liquid solid state amps. If you play them through a harsh sounding amp you lose a lot of the magic.

What I love about these speakers is that you can play them for hours and hours and they still sound good. Through the right amps there is NO listener fatigue, if you're using an analog source or good digital.

Horns don't sound like other speakers. Some people have to let the sound grow on them awhile, especially if you're used to the sound of modern speakers. I've had two friends who initially thought my K-horns colored the sound and weren't as clean as THEIR speakers (which were more expensive) who, after hearing my K-horns off and on for a couple of years changed their minds and bought K-horns. And now they are K-Horn fanatics, too. One of them recently had a pair made in oak to match his entertainment center. (Yes, you can still order these from the factory, and the K-horns, the La Scallas, and (maybe) the Heresys are supposed to become more generally available again in the near future.)

As others have said, give whatever speakers you're considering a good listen. All I can say is, Klipsh has tried to retire these designs a number of times in favor of newer models, and they're STILL around, and people who own them tend to be fanatic about them. If they ARE colored, it's the kind of coloration that grows on you.

 

I had La Scalas for a while back before I got my Klipschorns in '80. For people who don't have corners or need other placement options La Scalas coupled with a really good high output subwoofer(s) are a great option.

As far as electronics I have driven my Klipschorns with everything from all Solid State (McIntosh, Bryston etc..) to all Tube (KR Enterprise) and, while each have their advantages I find that the combo of Tube pre and SS amp that I use now ideal due to a few factors. The most important one being the required 30' + speaker cable length that negates using really low powered tube amps. A really clean SS amp driven by a good tube pre seems to do the job very well: smooth, warm yet detailed with great bass definition and "slam". It also provides the advantage of being able to 'tailor' the sound somewhat with tube choices.

 

pigmode,

Personally I've always liked Klipsch, esp for low-power set amps. Over the years I've owned Chorus IIs, CF-3, RP-3s, etc. and right now I have a pair of Klipsch KSF 8.5 on one of my systems.

However, even though I Klipsch and will in all likelihood continue to have at least one pair around there are other speakers I find to be more neutral in the high-efficiency department.

One of these are the Reference 3As, which work rather well with low-power amps, but image better, have greater detail and reproduce voices well. I've owned a pair of these in '94 and just purchased a pair again for my 1.5 watt set.

At 92 db with minimal crossover they would be as efficient as many 95 db speakers with more complex crossovers. Experts tell me that an xover can eat up a considerable portion of a set's power. Seems that way to me, because the 3As run as well as the 95 db RP3s I had running on the system before.

I can only speak from my own experience - I am sure there are hundreds of great speaker designs out there for small amps - including the Avantgarde Acoustic horn speakers, which probably sound a little less colored than "holding your hands over your mouth like a megaphone and speak"... as John described so vividly.

Happy Listening!

~Michael~

 

Thanks for sharing your experiences, dwmann. La Scallas in an 8x11 room? Wild, man, wild! Gosh, just the thought makes me want to start toss'in some furniture.

Michael,
I have some interest in the Reference 3As and will probably try to give it a listen later this year. Are you familiar with the ls3/5a?

I'm also intereted on The Horns, from The Horn Shoppe. Has anyone heard that one?

 

pigmode - sorry, but I am not familiar with the ls3/5a.

~Michael~