Lacking punch in current system....

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Chester0711, Jun 28, 2020.

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  1. head_unit

    head_unit Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles CA USA
    I definitely think a sub could help in two areas:
    (1) "Punch" as far as lows and midbass, depending perhaps exactly what you mean by "punch." The LS50 does not have a huge cone, so bass output will strain it due to physics.*
    (2) The coaxial tweeter sees the woofer cone as a kind of horn loading. When the woofer cone moves a lot it will modulate the tweeter sound. Reducing woofer motion will reduce modulation.

    For (1) the ability to separately position a sub can improve the in-room response. For (2) I'd want dual subs right near each LS50, with a much higher crossover than usual, like 200-300 Hz or something (which would also reduce the 501's amp load). BUT it is not clear to me if your Yammy 501 has any kind of highpass filtering inside, without which the LS50 woofer motion won't be reduced one bit. If no highpass, then I wouldn't do a subwoofer at all, I'd upgrade to tower KEFs instead.

    If you DO get a sub, it's hard to beat this for starters
    Monoprice 12in 150-Watt Powered Subwoofer, Black - Monoprice.com
    I got one for my brother for Christmas-$99 filled in below his 8" in-walls very nicely up to fairly loud levels in his huge open space. I told him if it wasn't loud enough he could get another or a half-dozen! :D
    At another extreme my friend got a $1000 SVS-SB3000. REALLY nice, from the packaging on. Very well thought out, and integrated adjustable EQ for those like yourself who have no room correction.
    - Isaac Newton, the father of physics, would have recommended large cones wherever possible. Playing bass at levels your ears can actually detect requires moving a lot of air, which is just easier for large cones.

    P.S. Here's a bonus for ya as a KEF owner I'd love to ask him what if any countermeasures KEF has taken for woofer modulation.
    *For instance here we see it is tuned to 52 Hz, so content below that will tend to uselessly flap the woofer
    KEF LS50 Anniversary Model loudspeaker Measurements
     
    Chester0711 likes this.
  2. Ctiger2

    Ctiger2 Senior Member

    Location:
    US
    Replace the speakers with an acoustic suspension style and then get a high powered SS amp along with a tube pre and your gold.
     
  3. mike catucci

    mike catucci Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    Still using the Lounge Silver, LS50s, VPI Scout Prime and the CM3.
     
  4. mike catucci

    mike catucci Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    I never thought of the Lounge as laid back, but system components have a lot to do with that. Mine is far from laid back.

    Looking at the OP's question, I'm thinking AMP but lots of people I respect went in another direction. Maybe take some demo's home and swap out and listen.
     
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  5. justanotherhifienthusiast

    justanotherhifienthusiast Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Punch is usually in 60-80hz range. It is the 'punch' you feel in synthesized bass, and also real instruments like kickdrums. If you find a distinct lack of punch, I would make a strong case that it is due to your speaker placement. I would imagine a square room of 12x12 might run into a multitude of bass cancellations and nulls at a variety of frequencies, including 60-80hz. Experiment with placing your speakers farther away from the back wall, or even better, your listening position relative to the speakers. Good luck.
     
  6. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    I sent my Silver for an upgrade to Gold, and the Copla to Silver.
     
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  7. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    BTW - how are you, brother? Long time no see.
     
  8. mike catucci

    mike catucci Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    Doing well. Went through some major unplanned changes to my career early last year (quit after 20 years) and came out stronger and better despite the pandemic. I tried to post when I could but life demanded my attention elsewhere. It was a wild ride and I'm finally on course and look forward to being around more and talking gear. Thanks for asking B!

    How's by you?
     
  9. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Well, my uncle whom I grew up with for first 25 years of my life has died of the blasted Covid. Othrweise same old, same old, thanks for asking.
     
  10. mike catucci

    mike catucci Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    Condolences bud. Hopefully he was older and lived a full life. Glad to hear all is well otherwise.
     
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  11. murphythecat

    murphythecat https://www.last.fm/user/murphythecat

    Location:
    Canada
    lol, how can anyone expect to experience punch with a speaker like the kef ls-50? its a 5 inch woofer.
    for punch, you need minimum a 8 inch woofers

    op, dont listen to anyone pointing to your phono or amp, its the speakers fault if you dont have punch. period.

    also, a sub is useless here. punch is between 70hz and 140hz, a sub will fill under 50hz, but wont give you punch.
     
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  12. pdxway

    pdxway Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oregon, USA
    I used LS50 in my master bedroom briefly. Listening from ~4 ft away, surprisingly getting nice punch!
     
  13. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    I agree about the frequencies but not about the speaker. The ls50s are incredibly well designed and are flat from 65Hz and up where they have good punch.
    The key to getting that punch is a good amp (OP- check) and proper positioning from floor (24" max) and wall (24" min) as well as rear port plugs removed.
    I have hear the Harbeth P3ESR with its 5" woofer deliver good punch with the right amp and positioning.
     
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  14. mike catucci

    mike catucci Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    Ummmmm....no. My CM3 rolled with some really nice NOS tubes gives me plenty of punch via the LS50's. You know not what you speak -sorry.
     
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  15. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    sorry about that man. may peace again soon be with you and your uncles family
     
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  16. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Thanks, brother.
     
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  17. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Reminds me - he was the one who bought that very first cassette deck, back in 1979, that got me into audio at the tender age of 8.
     
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  18. doctor fuse

    doctor fuse Forum Resident

    Your Project turntable looks like a beauty - but you haven't mentioned if you have put care into setting it up, placement, and isolating it from vibration, etc. Have you eliminated turntable set up as a possible cause for your lack of oomph?
     
    mike catucci likes this.
  19. DrZhivago

    DrZhivago Hedonist

    Location:
    Brisbane Australia
    I suggest you work your list in reverse order to find out.

    Regards
     
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  20. AKA-Chuck G

    AKA-Chuck G Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington NC
    A 5 inch woofer is likely dropping output around that 70-80hz range pretty quickly. I agree that you really need a speaker that can handle 60hz with decent output before rolling off. So an 8 inch woofer (maybe ported or a passive radiator) would make a big difference.

    Check this speaker out for example. Shows 50hz with -6db at 45hz.

    706 S2 Speaker | Bowers & Wilkins
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
  21. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Have you ever heard a good demo of the LS50s?
     
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  22. Gibsonian

    Gibsonian Forum Resident

    Location:
    Iowa, USA
    Single pair of 5" bass drivers won't ever give you much "punch". That's the obvious item from my perspective looking at your system components.
     
  23. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Have you heard a good demo of the KEF LS50s?
     
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  24. Gibsonian

    Gibsonian Forum Resident

    Location:
    Iowa, USA
    No I haven't, but have read the reviews and have seen the frequency response graph as well as have listened to many speakers, tiny bookshelfs to large floorstanding. Have never heard a 5" driver, in a tiny box, outside of a mobile system provide what I would call adequate "punch". Maybe the hump in the freq response at ~100 hz is KEF's method of pseudo punch? Most bookshelfs have this kind of hump somewhere in the bass response to give them more body.

    The definition of punch is pretty wide amongst us, maybe mine is different than yours? Or maybe KEF has found a way to defeat the laws of physics and I just need to hear them?

    For me it is obvious in the lineup of the OP, but always open to other ideas, esp if mine is way off base.
     
  25. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    then you have no basis for your comments which are not accurate. the LS50s are minor miracles when it comes to bass punch.
     
    mike catucci likes this.
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