Laptop streaming vs dedicated streamer?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Shangri-La, Jun 4, 2021.

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  1. Calvin_and_Hobbes

    Calvin_and_Hobbes Music Lover

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    I might do a shorter test with the iPhone and laptop and will report back if I do.
     
  2. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    Ok then, it's all the same, everything sound the same.
     
  3. OC Zed

    OC Zed Bludgeon Riffola

    Location:
    Costa Mesa, CA
    That's gross simplification of what a dedicated streamer does and disregards all of the reasons why a streamer will usually be a better performer than a general purpose laptop/desktop computer.
     
  4. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    I don't think so. They may be more esthetically acceptable in a music system setup, usually have a dedicated and friendly hardware interface and they are tailored to their single task. Not crude, imho, but simplified and packaged nicely. Unfortunately, they are often underpowered.
    I agree that it is a gross simplification but there are too many of them with severe limitations to justify the generalization. Easier and friendlier, I grant.
    There are things that make a difference and others that do not.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2021
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  5. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    I had a different experience to yours, I started streaming with a number of phones and computers, now I use a good streamer -tried several others before buying- I also bought an audiophile switch and have a couple of audiophile ethernet cables in the chain because I do find they make a difference.

    How many components and providers have you tried in your streaming chain to be so sure about what does or does not make a difference?
     
    Calvin_and_Hobbes likes this.
  6. OC Zed

    OC Zed Bludgeon Riffola

    Location:
    Costa Mesa, CA
    I won't argue with your ears if you cannot hear any difference on your system, provided you have, of course, actually tried one or two streamers yourself. I wouldn't, however, refute the testimonials of everyone else who have experience a positive difference in their systems going with a dedicated streamer.

    If I had a nickel for every time I read a "snake oil" charge on a HiFi website from someone who neither had firsthand knowledge of the product in question nor any great expertise in the field, I'd be the world's wealthiest person...
     
  7. Maggie

    Maggie like a walking, talking art show

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    It's literally true, though. The components inside the shell of a streaming box are either similar to a Raspberry Pi, an Android tablet, or a basic laptop, depending on the device. Most of them are just (very) basic android computers, kind of like what you'd find in a particularly high-end smart watch.

    It's just a fact. A streaming box is just a simple computer. There's no fairy dust or special component that makes them different.
     
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  8. Calvin_and_Hobbes

    Calvin_and_Hobbes Music Lover

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    I heard the best "snake oil" anecdote today on a podcast. All of the wires used to construct power cords for a particular model line came from the same producer, but it seemed as though the wires with red insulation sounded worse than the wires with the other colors of insulation. Sounds completely like psychobabble "snake oil" right?

    Well, the red dye used to color the red insulation red contained Cadmium. As you know, cadmium is a metal and thus may have changed the insulating properties of the red insulation versus insulation dyed with the other colors. Keeping all other variables the same, not coloring the insulation red completely removed any audible sonic difference.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2021
  9. Calvin_and_Hobbes

    Calvin_and_Hobbes Music Lover

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    You're right. A streaming box is just a simple computer....designed for audio sound quality. The KEY difference is that there is less inside which helps reduces the amount of EMI generated. But less components alone does not guarantee something will sound good as the RPi alone is known to be pretty noisy from an EMI perspective. My understanding of what is valuable from a sound quality perspective are having fewer necessary components to reduce the amount of noise generated and more of those components such as those in the power supply and the output ports designed to be lower in noise output.

    BTW, did you know that RFI can induce jitter?
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2021
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  10. Calvin_and_Hobbes

    Calvin_and_Hobbes Music Lover

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    John Westlake describing what went into the design of the Pro-ject Stream Box S2 Ultra: Why is pro-ject stream box ultra s2 so expensive (700euro for an R-PI)?

    In answer to “why the extra cost” over the standard RPi3 – it’s required to give a basic explanation of the RPi3 weakness WRT high end audio applications (remember is designed as a lowest cost computer platform NOT a highend audio streamer). These weakness in no way are a criticism of the RPi3 – but rather its design limitation from my perspective as an audio designer.

    Basically its weakness are all based on Clock Phase Noise (Jitter) and local PSU noise (which directly impacts the Jitter performance) and also the resultant local RF emissions:-

    1. The USB HUB / LAN IC is clocked by the CM3 SoC which has significantly higher jitter then an external Clock oscillator. More detrimental is that fact that clock phase noise is heavily correlated with the SoC software processing – resulting in Data correlated jitter.

    2. The USB HUB / LAN IC PLL clock circuits are powered from the switching supply rail that also powers the SoC Memory, so as data is “processed” though the memory this causes modulation of the PSu Rail directly correlated with the Data patterns which then modulates the critical PLL in the USB HUB / LAN which is used as our USB “source” via this noisy PSU rail.

    3. As one would expect little care has been taken with the quality of the 5V rail for USB DAC power – in fact its really pretty poor by “Audio” standards.

    4. There are multiple “free running” switching regulators on the RPi PCB – whose clocks are not related to the USB clock Rate so there switching products are free to induced multiple / complex RF and Ground noise spurie in the system.

    I could list more weakness, but you can start to appreciate the “Deficiencies” (not unexpected) of the simple Rpi3.

    1. The little ProJect streamer tackles these issues by making the USB 24MHZ clock the system “Clock master” and cleanly generating the LAN’s 25MHz clock and the multiple local switching supply’s operating from a divided down synchronised frequency of this 24MHz.

    2. Great care has been taken with the internal PSU’s – I count 8 low noise PSU’s of the top of my head.

    3. The USB host signal from the CM3 is RF filtered and USB “Detoxed” (the poor Phase noise of the CM3 USB Host controller) is attenuated by two Cascoded USB Hub bridges (and RF filter) resulting in a much attenuated USB Jitter on the “DAC” USB output.

    4. The DAC 5V feed has a very low noise regulator – whose voltage and current can be monitored via the streamer software.

    5. The DAC 5V USB voltage output can be disabled via software for DAC’s that don’t require 5V.

    6. An external USB bypass to the DAC USB output is proved, this bypass “Detox’s” the external USB signal in the same manor as applied to the RPi CM3 USB Host output.

    7. 16GB onboard eMMC is available for OS / software & local files.

    Sadly, all this makes for an expensive hardware solution – with “low volume” production costs are factored (ProJect will manufacture thousands Pcs – not millions) – the end selling price is just a fact of European low volume manufacturing – this is not China manufactured mass market pricing…​
     
  11. OC Zed

    OC Zed Bludgeon Riffola

    Location:
    Costa Mesa, CA
    It's the implementation and design that separates one streamer from another and from generic laptops/desktops. You can make the same general argument about any other component... amplifiers/speakers/turntables all have the same basic parts within their respective product categories and yet we can readily acknowledge that there are obvious differences from product to product.

    If you believe that digital audio is really only 1s and 0s, then there isn't anywhere else for this conversation to go.
     
    bever70 likes this.
  12. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    Cannot say but more than the ones I have reviewed in print.
    I never said that I cannot hear any difference. What I did object to was a generalization that dedicated proprietary streamers are inherently better sounding than a general purpose laptop/desktop computer (suitably adapted to the application).
    I would also object to the inverse generalization that general purpose laptop/desktop computers (suitably adapted to the application) are inherently better sounding than dedicated proprietary streamers.
     
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  13. Maggie

    Maggie like a walking, talking art show

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Sweet :thumbsup:
     
  14. Shangri-La

    Shangri-La Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    CA
    That's awesome. When you stream from your laptop, do you use a reclocker/digital-digital-converter between laptop and DAC or your DAC already has a reclocker? Also, which is the optimal interface for you when streaming, USB? Thanks!
     
  15. tIANcI

    tIANcI Wondering when the hifi madness will end

    Location:
    Malaysia
    DACs using the same chip do not sound the same. A Topping D90 does not sound anywhere near say a Matrix Audio X Sabre Pro. Both use use the Sabre 9038 chip.
    .
     
  16. wgb113

    wgb113 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chester County, PA
    I think streamers are a great option for those that don’t want a computer (and potentially a monitor) in their system.

    I’ve never experienced “noise” in the signal from my Mac Mini when streaming Tidal, nor does any show up on my RME DAC (unlike vinyl that’s played through it). The only noise I get from my computer is mechanical - disc drives when playing stored files and sometimes fan noise - but they’re not enough to be bothersome to me as the levels of the music typically drown them out.
     
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  17. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    The Topping D90 is built around the AKM4499 DAC chip (and it's onboard FIR filters), not a Sabre chip.
     
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  18. Sterling1

    Sterling1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    You can now be sure it is indeed not possible. This morning I attempted to enjoy Lossless Apple Music from iTunes app on my laptop running Windows 10, both streams and downloads of content identified as Hi-Res in Apple Music catalog. Streams and Downloads are playing via usb to Parasound P6 whereby iTunes is set to play up to 24/192 and Parasound Driver is set to 24/192; yet, Streams and Downloads are seen as being delivered in 256k AAC.
    I also, tried to play a Dolby ATMOS music selection, Stream and Download via HDMI connection from laptop to OPPO-205 with OPPO driver set to Dolby ATMOS and what I got was no output from iTunes. Reconfiguring OPPO driver to 5.1 resulted in stereo output to the OPPO. So, it appears Spatial Audio and Lossless is exclusive to iPhones. At any rate, my next step will be to buy an Apple TV and test it between my laptop and OPPO.
     
  19. shug4476

    shug4476 Nullius In Verba

    Location:
    London
    Macbook Pro here streaming wirelessly to Airport Express then optical cable to DAC.

    Sounds fantastic, even with lossy files. Really just love getting lost in the music on a random shuffle.

    Have tried various forms of Hi-Res into various DACs. Gains depended on the master. My old Samsung S7 works beautifully as a source into Chord DAC.
     
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  20. tIANcI

    tIANcI Wondering when the hifi madness will end

    Location:
    Malaysia
    This is what happens when the brain is slower than the finger. TQ! Lol

    Anyways, tried DACs with same chip but they sound different.
     
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  21. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    Direct to DAC (exaSound s88).
    USB or ethernet.
     
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  22. mtrot

    mtrot Forum Resident

    Location:
    Tyler, TX
    I'm streaming Amazon Music HD from my HP Envy laptop to my Anthem STR Preamplifier over USB cable, and it sounds really good to me. But I've never used an expensive streamer, so I can't comment on that.
     
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  23. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Pretty much. You can achieve the same results with a spare laptop or tablet + the USB DAC of your choice. RPi is an option for the DIY inclined and there are some places that sell pre-assembled kits. Then you won't be tethered to proprietary software or potentially flushing money down the toilet when tech changes in a few years. Look at what some of those fancy AVRs and AV processors from 5-10 years ago are worth now. Same deal with streamer boxes.
     
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  24. Shangri-La

    Shangri-La Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    CA
    Digital signal noise/jitter doesnt necessarily translate to audible noise/jitter. Muddy base, harsh treble, low fidelity mid can all be results of digital signal noise/jitter.
     
  25. Sterling1

    Sterling1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    Here's a recap of my recent experiment with "Classic Hauser" stream, CD, and FLAC download, which indicated Apple Music via Airport Express S/PDIF to Sony TA-E9000ES DAC was preferable to the other means to recorded music. I will be buying an Apple TV soon to enjoy Hi-Res Apple Music and Dolby ATMOS to OPPO-205 via HDMI.
    • LP>Technics SL-1210GR/Shure V15V (SAS)>Sony TA-E9000ES Pre-Pro Phono Preamplifier input
    • 24/96 FLAC Download>Foobar2000>OPPO-205 DAC up sampling to 24/192>Sony TA-E9000ES analog input
    • 24/96 FLAC Download>Foobar2000>Creative Sound Blaster X-FI HD (for usb to S/PDIF conversion at 24/96)>TA-E9000ES optical S/PDIF input
    • Apple Music Download>iTunes>Airport Express (wi-fi to S/PDIF 16/44.1 output)>Sony TA-E9000ES optical S/PDIF input
    • Apple Music Download>iTunes>OPPO-205 DAC up sampling to 24/192>Sony TA-E9000ES analog input
    • Apple Music Download>iTunes>Creative Sound Blaster X-FI HD (for usb to S/PDIF conversion at 24/96)>TA-E9000ES optical S/PDIF input
    • Apple Music Download>Network connection to OPPO-205 DAC up sampling to 24/192>Sony TA-E9000ES analog input
    • 24/96 FLAC Download>Thumb Drive>OPPO-205 DAC up sampling to 24/192>Sony TA-E9000ES analog input
    • 24/96 FLAC Download>Network connection to OPPO-205 DAC up sampling to 24/192>Sony TA-E9000ES analog input
    • CD>OPPO-205>Sony TA-E9000ES analog input
    • CD>Rip to iTunes in ALAC>OPPO-205 DAC up sampling to 24/192>Sony TA-E9000ES analog input
    • CD>Rip to iTunes in ALAC>Airport Express (wi-fi to S/PDIF 16/44.1 output) Sony TA-E9000ES analog input
    • CD>Rip to iTunes in ALAC>Creative Sound Blaster X-FI HD (for usb to S/PDIF conversion at 24/96)>Sony TA-E9000ES optical S/PDIF input
     
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