L'Art Du Son vinyl cleaning solution degrading

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by fmuakkassa, Dec 7, 2014.

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  1. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    I get the reagent water online from several different sources- all the same maker- Nerl-Casco. Optics Planet (which is in Illinois, I think) used to have it in 5 gallon carboys and the price included free shipping as I recall. Every time I reordered the price had gone up. Nerl-Casco is, I believe, a product of Fischer Scientific. Now I order directly from them. If you have an account, it is cheaper than the retail listed price, and the shipping charge is the same for one or two carboys, so I get 2 x 5 gallons. The 5 gallon box comes with a spigot, so it is easy to manage. I then transfer it to 1 gallon non-BPA ? jugs, as needed, that are in my cleaning area- and I can then pour into smaller flasks, measuring beakers or bottles as needed. It is way cheaper than the "audiophile" branded pure water but it still isn't cheap- this is Grade 1. I have it shipped to a local business address to accommodate me, since they will not, as mentioned, ship to residential addresses, even if a home business.
     
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  2. rob303

    rob303 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Denver, CO
    The company in the link in my previous post specializes in online sales. Just to be clear I only use that water to mix with my soap and use as a rinse. I would call and pick their brain for specifics.
     
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  3. Al_D

    Al_D Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bristol, UK
    I've had an odd problem with L'art Du Son recently, so bumping this thread...

    I haven't really got the space for an RCM in my room, so I improvised and did this kind of thing...



    ...except with out the fruit juice fluid and using cut-up pads from a Mo-Fi brush to protect the record from the tubing (I did try without on a beat up record, but wasn't sure that rubber/plastic tubing wasn't going to grind itself into the grooves at some point).

    Initially I was using Keith Monks fluid, then a distilled wash.

    All was well with this, except for a bit of a problem with streaking when I couldn't get a flat enough surface against the record to suck everything up 100% - more experimentation required there. For £40-50 (I bought a very small Shop-vac for this), this was cheaper and much more convenient than buying an RCM, as I can pack the vac away somewhere when not in use.

    I moved on to L'art Du Son when the Keith Monks ran out. Originally I bought the LDS to use in the Knosti, and never had a problem with it in that, except when cleaning some old acetates with it (my 20yo DJing finger prints cleaned off OK, but they seemed to grow back after a month or so!) I really wanted to keep using it with this set up. However, after a few records, I started to get a kind of white mist on the surface - a bit like the misting you get from PVC outer covers, but not as thick. I've no idea why this would be. Could it be that the LDS is reacting with something in the Mo-Fi brush pad, perhaps the glue? I've changed the pads a few times (requires cutting a bit of tube off every time), but not cured this problem. I don't see anything growing on the records after a month or so, and surface noise isn't increased, but misty records are not desirable all the same.

    I don't see anything nasty in the bottle of concentrate. I've kept it in it's original bottle, in a box, under the bed. This should be pretty cool most of the time.

    Has anybody else had this kind of thing with L'art Du Son before?
     
  4. dianos

    dianos Forum Resident

    Location:
    The North
    Never seen that myself and have used it for years. Are you using the correct mix as written on the l art bottle?
     
  5. Al_D

    Al_D Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bristol, UK
    Good point. I may have worked it out wrong, but I'm reasonably sure I got it right.

    I am mixing into a 250ml plastic bottle, only filled up to 125ml (this bottle is purposely very thin and squeezable, it doesn't take much to fire a load of water out of the spout and across a room).

    The bottle says to mix 20-29ml into 1l of water. Let's say 25ml for every 1000ml of water. 125 goes into 1000 8 times, so I want to be using 8 times less concentrate in 125ml. That just over 3ml for my solution, right?

    I last did this nearly 2 months ago, so hard to remember, but I think this is what I used, so should be OK.
     
  6. eddiel

    eddiel Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Hmm...I use L'Ar Du Son and I have used it with the Mofi brushes. I did change to the Osage brushes but prior to that change it was the Mofi I used. I never experienced what you've experienced.

    Even at high concentrations there shouldn't be an affect. I've messed up before (liquid pores out much faster than I can tilt the bottle back!) and put twice as much as I should've and not had any issues. But I did rinse really well.

    Could it be your rinsing stage didn't remove all the fluid?

    Wasn't there a misting problem with some inner sleeves? Have you changed your inner sleeves recently?
     
  7. dianos

    dianos Forum Resident

    Location:
    The North
    Yupp thats correct.
     
  8. Wes H

    Wes H Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia
    Never seen anything any residue from LDS on vinyl after years of using it with my VPI 16.5 RCM.
    My last cleaning stage is a distilled water rinse (and vacuum). As someone else surmised, perhaps you're not properly rinsing the cleaner off after it has done it's job?
     
  9. Tullman

    Tullman Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston MA
    I've been using LDS for years and I don't do a water rinse, and still my record come out shiny and black.
     
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  10. royzak2000

    royzak2000 Senior Member

    Location:
    London,England
    Been using it for about six years now, never bother with the rinse bit, on my Loricraft, never needed to.
     
  11. Tullman

    Tullman Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston MA
    I remember Barry Diament recommending Aquafina water. The water is filtered and treated with reverse osmosis. I use Aquafina to mix with my LDS and get great results. It's easily available and not expensive.
     
  12. royzak2000

    royzak2000 Senior Member

    Location:
    London,England
    Had not heard of this, presume you do not use Mango flavour.
     
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  13. Tullman

    Tullman Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston MA
    Haha, no, just the plain purified water.
     
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  14. Al_D

    Al_D Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bristol, UK
    I think, from the replies I'm getting, I need to refine my method and see how it goes.

    Well, I do rinse with distilled water, but this doesn't clean off the mist, nor any smearing I get with either the KM or LDS fluids. Like I say, the mist doesn't seem to cause any extra noise.

    I'm not entirely sure I get a residue free groove every time though, even with a rinse. Sometimes there's no extra surface noise after a clean, sometimes there is (it lessens when you play the record, and after about 3 plays you don't hear it any more).

    I'm still tinkering with the vacuum to find out what's possible though, I could probably do with completely sealing the tube. I left a little air hole where the tube attaches to the vacuum, just so it doesn't completely suck the record to the tube and stop it spinning. This might not be necessary, and may help the vacuum suck the fluid up more if I seal it.

    Another thing I need to do is make sure the end of the tube is flat, and there are no creases in the Mo-Fi pad material. This should stop fluid welling up in the creases and causing smears. Perhaps even replacing the mo-fi material with the replacement pads for a machine like the Moth could help. I'm still wondering if this is the glue from the Mo-Fi pads getting through the material and onto the record.

    Thanks for the replies all!
     
  15. Wes H

    Wes H Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia
    I don't think it has anything to do with glue from the Mo-Fi pads. I use those all the time without any issue; the LDS fluid is certainly not breaking that pad down and causing the glue to come out.

    Looking at your video raises some questions:
    1. You are applying the solution (at least that solution) with a plastic bottle. I hope you're aware that the LDS instructions clearly state that you should not store the solution (mixed or otherwise) in plastic. If it has sat in plastic for a while, the solution might be suspect at that point. Use glass.
    2. You are moving very rapidly across the record with your vacuum hose. It might appear to be pulling all the fluid off, but is it? The machines use a wand that extracts all the fluid across all the grooves at once, and for several revolutions.
    3. After applying your distilled water rinse, your scrubbing action generates suds (in the video)... which indicates you've still got the LDS solution in the grooves. When I'm doing my rinse cycle, I apply the distilled water with a clean Mo-Fi brush (which I use only for rinse application) and never see any suds. This is why I have a concern with your vacuum step in No.2 above.

    It may not be essential to rinse off a record after cleaning and thoroughly vacuuming it, as certainly others here have success without the rinse stage. But note that the instructions on the LDS bottle advise that "if used without a vacuum record cleaner, use a rinse of distilled water..."
     
  16. Guitarded

    Guitarded Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montana
    Been using it for 2 years, now?

    Never had any issues with degradation.
    I keep the original bottle in the sunless recesses of the basement.
    Mix abou 1/2 gallon at a time into a glass 'growler' and use a plastic applicator bottle that may sit for 3-4 days max before needing a refill (clean and rinse, 1st).

    No unsightly moldy growth in any containers.

    ...not even in the 1 gallon contained of used fluid that I drain into.

    Also. I rinse. Mostly for static mitigation.
     
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  17. Al_D

    Al_D Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bristol, UK

    OK, but bear in mind that the video is just where I got the idea, and I don't do things quite the same as he does.

    I keep the speed of the turntable low. It makes more sense as the vacuum is in contact with any given spot on the record for slightly longer, thus giving it more chance to pick up the fluid. I'm also not using a homemade solution. His suds are coming from whatever he's using in his solution. I get no suds when I do the distilled rinse (with a second brush). And lastly, I don't use the tubing without having the Mo-Fi pad on it. I tend to also move the tube slowly over the record, so hopefully any one spot gets a few goes at removing the fluid. I go from inside out and then back again the other way.

    I've considered making a wand instead of using the end of the tube, and it should be easy enough. There is a wand you can buy for this purpose, but I have some plastic piping here that I can make one with for nothing.

    At the end of the day, I don't have excessive extra noise from records I've cleaned this way, a lot come out with no extra noise, only some have had a little extra crackle when I've not done things quite as well as I could, and that goes away after a couple of plays. It's just the mist that instantly appears on some (not all!) of the records I clean with LDS that baffles me.
     
  18. GyroSE

    GyroSE Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    I've used LDS for five years or so and I've always used a small squeezable plastic bottle to mix the sollution in and I've never encountered any problems. I store the concentrate in the original glass bottle and the mixed sollution in the small plastic bottle in the fridge. I always try to use the mixed sollution as fast as possible but on a couple of occasions I've had the mix for 5-6 weeks without touching it and I had no problems using it after these occasions. As long I keep the bottles stored cool and dark then there will be no problems IMHO.

    I neither rinse off my records as I think the results are more than adequate just by using the sollution and vacuum it off the records.
     
  19. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    Other than having used it for longer my usage and experience are absolutely identical although I don't keep mine in the fridge, glass bottle kept in the dark at room temperature and mixed liquid in a plastic bottle away from daylight and even on occasions where I'm not doing much cleaning for a prolonged period no problems ever, I'm using a VPI 16.5.
     
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  20. PJC68

    PJC68 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Liverpool UK
    I use it with my Moth pro RCM and think it is great
    I mix a small amount in a 250ml brown bottle with a push dispenser top, keep it out of light in a dark cupboard and the mixed solution will last for months
    If you cant get rid of the bits by shaking the bottle just filter it through paper filters
     
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