Led Zeppelin I-IV 2014 remasters considered the best?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Plissken99, Dec 5, 2014.

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  1. tmtomh

    tmtomh Forum Resident

    Luke made several statements in the "Zep '80s CDs" thread he linked to above. Putting them all together doesn't give us 100% clarity, but it does seem to get us close:

    Based on these statements, it seems certain that:
    • All RE-1/RE1 CDs have the cough
    • All non-RE-1/RE1 SRC CDs (CDs pressed or glass-mastered by Specialty Records Corp, a frequent maker/presser of CDs, especially WEA family ones) lack the cough
    • Many non-RE-1/RE1 CDs made/pressed by companies other than SRC also lack the cough
    The one remaining question, I think, is:
    • Are there some non-RE-1/RE1 CDs from companies other than SRC that have the cough - since as Luke notes, non-SRC companies didn't use the RE-1/RE1 designation. Luke's comments above strongly imply that there are indeed non-RE-1/RE1 CDs that have the cough - and this would stand to reason, since it's unlikely that SRC was the only maker/presser in the world of CDs with the cough. However, if all CDs with the cough globally were glass-mastered by SRC (even if pressed by multiple companies), then all CDs with the cough would have the RE-1/RE1 designation in the matrix.
    Clearly, the easy/safe (and cheap) way to ensure you get the cough is just to buy a copy where CD 1 has RE-1 or RE1 in the matrix. If. however, someone is a collector and is seeking, for example, a Japanese pressing of the '80s mastering with the cough, then one would have to investigate how to identify cough vs non-cough CDs that were not pressed by SRC (since, per Luke, non-SRC pressings don't use the RE-1/RE1 designation as a differentiator).
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
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  2. mdm08033

    mdm08033 Senior Member

    Regardless of the cough topic, your ears are safe buying any old original Fatboy edition.
     
  3. DiabloG

    DiabloG City Pop, Rock, and anything 80s til I die

    Location:
    United States
    Thanks for this analysis, very informative! If I wanted to see what source tape a CD uses, how would I detect a leader edit? Would it be very quiet hiss, no hiss at all, or something else entirely? Aside from hiss levels, leader edits, and summed bass, are there other ways to tell if a copy tape was used?
     
  4. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    A transfer of non-magnetic leader will have a level of noise an order of magnitude less than magnetic tape. An edit to/from leader can often be seen in both waveform view and spectral view depending on zoom level.

    There are lots of things that could ID a copy tape of some sort, but it's hard to give some sort of definitive list.

    It's worth noting that things like dropouts and damage aren't indicative of any particular tape generation. For example, sometimes copies were made prior to damage to the masters.
     
  5. Timbo21

    Timbo21 Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    There's been a fair amount of talk about elliptical filters, and I'm not sure they are properly understood.

    I used a Neumann cutting desk. The elliptical equaliser simply enabled you to either mono all bass below 300hz, or below 150hz. Noting more, nothing less. @Stefan I cannot see there being a way to restore that with a plugin.

    Invariably 150hz EE would often be used for albums. It could save a bit of space to get better level on disc and also safeguarded against potential playback skips. Stereo bass is particularly problematic to cut. In the old days of mastering what used to happen would be that the individually mixed songs would get edited together with the right gaps, etc, onto one reel (well two separate A/B). Then the various levels and EQ for each song set up. Neumann desks had A/B stereo channels with duplicate EQ. When you press the marker where the groove opens up between songs, the channel would automatically change to the B channel, then back to A for the next song, etc, etc. Additionally, often there would be another 1/4" machine running whilst the lacquer was being cut that would capture the levels, EQ, Elliptical, etc. Those would often get sent out to the territories and they would be the Mastered Master. You can identify those since there won't be leader tape between songs, whereas the original spliced together pre-mastered, will have leader between tracks.

    Many albums have also been cut with a hi-pass 40hz filter (12dB/Oct iirc). That is used to save space and get a better level. That is not always as bad as you may think because a cutter head I used to use added bass, so by adding the filter it evened it out. The detriment is that would get copied over to a Mastered copy tape.

    Various CD's etc potentially have mono bass and could have low end filtering if copy Masters were used. If the elliptical get's used at 300hz, that starts to become quite apparent and quite a detriment, but can save a fair bit on the disk enabling better level if it's a long side like 27 minutes, for example.
     
  6. Icenine1

    Icenine1 Forum Resident

    I apologize, I meant the RL vinyl in addition to the German CD's.
     
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  7. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Actually I've been fairly successful in doing just that!

    The key was to use an EQ plugin with analog emulation because counteracting the phase shift from the original analog EQ used for the elliptical is essential to restoring the width. An elliptical EQ doesn't fully sum everything below the stated frequency like a linear phase digital EQ with a brickwall filter (which was my initial incorrect thought when this first came up) but is basically a first-order high pass filter applied only to the Side (in M/S) at 6dB per octave (for example, signals at 75Hz would only be 6dB below those at 150Hz). Plus as an analog EQ it was certainly not linear phase. This along with the cut in the difference information above the center frequency is why it significantly narrows perceived stereo width.

    I used iZotope's Ozone EQ in M/S mode with a low shelf centered at 75Hz@+6dB combined with a peak filter of +10dB at 20Hz. This produces a curve that does a good job of reversing a 1st-order high-pass filter. Ozone has a phase slider when in digital mode and it's interesting to apply the EQ curve I just described while listening and moving the phase slider to 100%. Sounds that were narrowed by the original elliptical EQ move out to something very close to their original position.

    When I apply this to needledrops that obviously have been cut from EQed production tapes (easy to see by converting a file to M/S then comparing the spectrum curves), the restoration of sound positions is quite good. With reference to this thread, if for example I apply my preset to the Marino or Davis versions of the Rain Song, the opening acoustic guitar moves back out to almost hard left as on the Diament version. It's not 100% as the phase reversal isn't quite 100% but it's very close. There's also a matter of tweaking bass levels in both the Mid and Side channels. Anyway, I'm EQ geeking out here. Suffice it to say, I'm quite enthused with what this does for some of my needledrops.
    Interesting. What I find puzzling about the Diament HOTH CD is that, yes the leader thump at the end of the Crunge certainly looks credible but breaks between other tracks show no such thumps There are gaps between the tracks but they look like digital edits. I don't recall Barry Diament ever mentioning edits during his work only that he did some light treble EQ boosting on some of the Zeppelin material. I'll have to dig out my old HOTH CD and do a full disk rip to make sure it wasn't my ripping software (I usually rip track by track).

    Plus we have the interview with John Davis in which he clearly stated that the one album for which an original master wasn't available was not an EQed production copy. I certainly don't see a professional of his calibre compromising his integrity by lying.
     
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  8. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Done. The gaps are still there. They aren't uniform in duration so I can't see that they're inserted by the ripping software or by the CD manufacturing process. Before the Crunge there's only 0.2seconds whereas before D`Yer Maker, it's 1.2 seconds and before No Quarter, 1.3. In no cases are there any indications of seams between tape and leader or offset diagonal cuts.
     
  9. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    There is at the start of The Song Remains the Same.

    Between The Song Remains the Same and The Rain Song there was no leader; the tracks edited right into each other.

    The same is true between The Rain Song and Over The Hills and Far Away.

    Between Over The Hills and Far Away and The Crunge digital fades were made, obscuring what's actually on the tape.
     
  10. Timbo21

    Timbo21 Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    I'm not sure what system Diament used, but one of the very first widely used systems was a Sony digital editing system using 1610/1630 processor and U-matic tapes. Completely different way of working to the older direct to lacquer method. So, if you had a compiled 1/4" tape and were using different EQ's per song, then you would generally work the EQ for that song, then record it over digitally to U-matic on a per song basis. That is your raw EQ'd master with all your songs on, but it doesn't have the correct gaps. That then goes in the U-matic player part of the editor and you then copy them to another U-matic using the editor, song by song, editing all the gaps nicely as you go through the album sequentially. That becomes your final CD master. Copies are then made for territories. That method could account for some inclusion of an edit thump and some digital splices. Additionally, some CD masters back then were created by just playing the EQ'd 1/4" master and recording directly onto 1610/1630, no editing.
     
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  11. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Diament's comments on here and on another forum mentioned the Sony 1610/1630 and that he used his own cables to connect directly from the tape machine to the Sony. He also mentioned doing light treble EQ boosts but I don't recall his ever mentioning any edits or digital fades between tracks.
     
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  12. Timbo21

    Timbo21 Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    An engineer might mention an edit if you were fixing something, or changing the main body of the song in some way, taking out a verse or chorus, etc. Sequencing the album via an editor is not really editing, per se. It’s just what you normally do in CD Mastering. The Sony editor was integral of the 1610/1630 system. You wouldn’t use a 1610/1630 by itself in those days. Later, when hard disk editors came in, the album was sequenced and dumped to 1630.

    Additionally, you would be surprised what happens to CD Masters without the original mastering engineer’s knowledge. It is very common for the record company/artist to decide they want a fade chased down, or something altered in terms of a gap.

    Since these are simply done, quite often the record companies will give it to any studio to complete. I’ve seen instances where the original CD Master had tape hiss between tracks, but another engineer has been asked to change a gap & they then decided it was better to also chase each fade/decay of each track so yhat there is digital black between tracks.

    I’m not saying any of the above is definitive, but it gives you an idea of what goes on.

    A person could spend the rest of their days looking into it and still not find out exactly.
     
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  13. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    This would explain the missing cough on some versions of the Physical Graffiti CD for example. Barry Diament was adamant that he never removed it so someone else must have done so.

    These sorts of things certainly happened with vinyl as well. I used to have a late 70's Canadian reissue of Led Zeppelin II from which the swell at end of the song Thank You was removed. Just yesterday I needledropped a US late-70's reissue of Houses of the Holy that's missing Bonzo's count-in at the beginning of The Ocean!
     
  14. Timbo21

    Timbo21 Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    When digital came in there was the scope to tidy up these things, and that noise between songs should be tidied up for CD. Hiss really was the enemy. So, fade to digital black where possible. A CD mastering place I worked at had the first Sonic Solutions No-Noise hard disk editing system in the UK. I usually preferred the unprocessed sound with hiss. The results often sounded very clinical to me at times, but it was CD and it shouldn’t have it. I think many audiophiles feel the exact opposite now.

    Led Zep have often left untidy ends. It doesn’t surprise me this happened.
     
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  15. Psychedelic Good Trip

    Psychedelic Good Trip Beautiful Psychedelic Colors Everywhere

    Location:
    New York
    Have been playing some old Zep and 2014 masters lps. Gonna go through more of the 2014 reissues I picked up.
     
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  16. Merrick

    Merrick The return of the Thin White Duke

    Location:
    Portland
    I’ve been reading through this thread and it inspired me to do some comparison listening, especially as I recently put on the HD remaster of IV and found it feeling bright and harsh. I prefer the remasters for most of the titles but 1, 2, 4, and HOTH are ones where I also kept my 80s CDs. Some thoughts:

    LZ1 - Diament mastering has excellent tone and dynamics. Doesn’t feel like information is missing. I’d be happy owning this as my only copy. The remaster sounds a bit sharper, a bit more aggressive. Tonally very similar. I’d be fine with either, it’s honestly a total toss up.

    LZ2 - Diament still has good dynamics and tone but there sounds like there may be some kind of distortion on portions of the tape that was used? In a few of the songs things went from tasty crunchy to overbaked, I know those aren’t audiophile terms but they describe what I was experiencing. Remaster doesn’t have this issue, it sounds more right to me overall. Remaster takes it.

    LZ4 - I really don’t like the remaster. Yes, it’s detailed, but it sounds bright and harsh. That’s not even comparing it to the Sidore or Marino, just listening to it on its own terms. Kind of surprising, you would think they would have taken more care with the crown jewel of the catalog. The Sidore on the other hand is a real winner, crankable and textured and not harsh at all. It does sound like there’s a little more hiss on the Sidore, it probably is from a copy of the master and not the master itself, but it’s a far more enjoyable listen.

    I still need to compare HOTH. I really like the Diament of that one so it will be interesting to really A/B it.
     
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  17. Merrick

    Merrick The return of the Thin White Duke

    Location:
    Portland
    HOTH: Diament wins this one easily for me. The remaster isn't bad, it is in fact a smidge more detailed than the Diament and with better instrument separation. Similar to the first album, it's got a harder edge which can be exciting. However, the Diament begs to be turned up and up and up and it just sounds better when I do. The remaster had the opposite effect, I had to turn it down to be comfortable with it. And that to me is the surefire sign that the Diament is the winner.
     
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  18. JeffMo

    JeffMo Format Agnostic

    Location:
    New England
    I've got a blizzard coming my way - good day to pull out the Led Zep catalog and I haven't spun the DE bonus discs in quite a while either! :righton:
     
  19. tmtomh

    tmtomh Forum Resident

    I very much agree with your assessments: LZI basically a toss-up; LZII (if I read your comment correctly) I prefer the Davis because it's more consistent; LZIV I agree the Davis remaster is harsh; HOTH Diament is the best hands-down. :righton:
     
  20. Merrick

    Merrick The return of the Thin White Duke

    Location:
    Portland
    Yep, that’s the conclusion I came to! I think the best of the Davis remasters is PG, ITTOD and III. Presence is my least favorite LZ album but the Davis remaster sounds good for that as well.
     
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  21. JeffMo

    JeffMo Format Agnostic

    Location:
    New England
    I seem to recall you liked the Mastered for iTunes versions. Have you checked out the Apple Music versions of the catalog? Are high res files available on there?
     
  22. tmtomh

    tmtomh Forum Resident

    I agree with you on this as well. I would only add an additional emphasis to the sonics of the Davis remaster of Presence - it's far and away the best sounding mastering IMHO.

    Yes, the 2012 MFiT versions use the Davis mastering that later appeared on CD, LP, and HD files in 2014 and 2015. So my current preferences for the MFiT versions would be identical to my preferences for the Davis CDs and HD files (Zep II, Zep III, PG, Presence, and ITTOD, plus Zep I is 99% as good as the Diament IMHO).

    I don't subscribe to Apple Music, so while I'm sure Apple Music uses the same MFiT mastering, I don't know if the HD files are available on Apple Music.
     
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  23. Merrick

    Merrick The return of the Thin White Duke

    Location:
    Portland
    Apple Music uses the 2014/2015 Davis remasters for streaming.
     
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  24. zen

    zen Senior Member

    I know. It's hard to believe hard compression is still except-able. Case in point of society being a-okay with music pushed to the background. :thumbsdow
     
  25. Merrick

    Merrick The return of the Thin White Duke

    Location:
    Portland
    All the Davis remasters have some compression compared to the old '80s CDs, yet most of them are the best sounding digital versions of the LZ catalog. And not all of them make me feel like I need to turn them down so much.
     
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