Lets talk about Talk Talk *

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Den., Dec 15, 2015.

  1. motionoftheocean

    motionoftheocean Senior Member

    Location:
    Circus Maximus
    So the DVD and SACD of Spirit of Eden are the same, but what about the hi-res version sold a few years later? Any reason to believe it's any different?

    Also it would be kind of great for someone to summarize the consensus digital versions of the Talk Talk catalog.
     
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  2. tmtomh

    tmtomh Forum Resident

    Where are you getting the information that the 2003 SACD mastering and the 2012 DVD mastering are identical?
     
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  3. JulesRules

    JulesRules Weaponized, Deranged Warthog Thug

    Location:
    Germany
    @tmtomh has already done some analysis on this very thread. Did anybody else speak their minds?
     
  4. motionoftheocean

    motionoftheocean Senior Member

    Location:
    Circus Maximus
    oh sorry, Colour of Spring is the one where you said the DVD and HDTracks were the same. Yesterday was a very long day lol.
     
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  5. tmtomh

    tmtomh Forum Resident

    No problem! I was just wondering if there were some new information (which is always welcome :righton:).
     
  6. motionoftheocean

    motionoftheocean Senior Member

    Location:
    Circus Maximus
    May I ask what your preferred digital versions are at the moment?
     
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  7. tmtomh

    tmtomh Forum Resident

    The Party's Over: Original US/UK CD mastering. I can't remember if the West German CD has different mastering for this title; and the 1997 remaster is too compressed on some tracks for my taste.

    It's My Life: a tie between the original US/UK mastering and the 1997 remaster. I really like the '97 remaster and consider it on par with the original CD despite the fact that the two sound quite different than each other. For this album, the original West German CD does contain a different mastering than the US/UK mastering, and I prefer the latter.

    Colour of Spring: SACD (SACD layer only; redbook layer is just a clone of the 1997 remaster). The 2012 DVD is probably my 2nd favorite. For redbook, I honestly don't love either the original CD mastering or the '97 remaster. Both are fine and I could happily live with them, so don't get me wrong - but the former is a bit dull and lifeless for me while the latter is a bit flat-sounding. One way of describing why I love the SACD mastering is that it has the increased slam and transient impact that the '97 remaster provides over the original '86 CD, but the SACD adds some welcome clarity and soundstage depth that prevents it from having the slightly one-dimensional, "flat" feel that the '97 CD has for me.

    Spirit of Eden: SACD (SACD layer only, for same reason as above). Again, the 2012 DVD might be my 2nd favorite, but for this album I really like the original UK CD mastering and would put that right up there with the DVD (although they are different). The '97 remaster is my least-favorite for this album, for reasons similar to my thoughts on Colour of Spring.

    Laughing Stock: US mastering. Most hardcore fans prefer the US CD because it doesn't have the crossfade between tracks 3 and 4 and therefore provides 10-40 seconds of extra music (depending on how you count). But the other issue is that the US CD has a bit more bass and ambience than the UK CD. Also of note, the original Japanese CD is a level-shift of the US CD - they are bit-identical when you level-match them. Similarly, the 1999(?) Pond Life reissue is bit-identical to the original UK CD, except it's bizarrely level-shifted by 0.56dB. Now all that said, the UK CD clearly is what the band intended for the CD of this album: not only is it the source used for the Pond Life reissue (which I assume was overseen or at least signed off on by Mark Hollis), but the break between tracks 3 and 4 on the US and Japan CDs was obviously created for the original vinyl and cassette versions, where there had to be a break between Side A and Side B. Nevertheless, for whatever reason, the mastering on the US and JP CDs sounds just a little better thank the UK and reissue CDs.
     
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  8. Dam

    Dam Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    Do you recommend any particular US pressing of 'Laughing Stock', tmtomh?
    Thanks in advance!
     
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  9. tmtomh

    tmtomh Forum Resident

    My preferences above were for the digital versions, and as there's only one US CD mastering for Laughing Stock, any of them will do just fine!

    This CD used to be cheap and plentiful online and in the bins - I got two copies for $5 each a few years ago and sold one here - but with Mark Hollis' passing the prices have gone up. I took a quick look at Australia eBay and there are many copies you can get for less than $20AUS, but they're from international sellers so I have no idea what the actual shipped cost to you would be. I would suggest trying to source it locally first, even if you had to be patient about it.

    I guess the only specific-pressing comment I'd make is that there is a certain charm, depending on your point of view, to having the first press. It might be harder to find these days, but the two cheap copies I got were both original 1991 pressings. Sonically, though, newer represses will be identical.

    The only thing to watch out for is that the US and UK/EU CDs both share the same UPC/barcode and the same catalogue number. In my experience the vast majority of copies for sale online, even from UK/EU sellers, are the US version, but still, you can't be entirely sure you're getting the US mastering if you buy it blind using just the barcode or catalogue number. The main differentiating factors are:

    • US: Polydor label, silver-face disc
    • UK/EU: Verve label, black-face disc with prominently displayed "Verve" logo on it
    The UK/EU Verve CD also has some Polydor markings on it, but it's always listed under Verve on eBay, Discogs, and so on. So any CD listed as "Polydor" is 99% certain to be the US version, even if there are no photos of it.

    The Japan CD is a hybrid - it's got a black disc face very similar to the UK/EU CD, but the disc face says Polydor and not Verve, and the mastering is the US mastering. Of course, the Japan CD is extremely rare online and impossible to find for less than about $100US shipped to most locations, so I don't imagine that will be an issue you will have to deal with. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
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  10. Dam

    Dam Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    Many thanks for your very detailed reply to my query, tmtomh!!
    Hope I can return the favour one day...
    Regards,
    David
     
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  11. motionoftheocean

    motionoftheocean Senior Member

    Location:
    Circus Maximus
    beautiful post - thank you

    and coming back to my original, misstated post...

    for anyone may be able to compare, do the more recent hi-res releases of COS and SOE differ from their respective SACD layers?
     
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  12. domesticmachine

    domesticmachine Resident Forum

    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Just a plug. Haven’t dug through all the comments to see how much it’s been discussed but I recently shelled out for the Spirit of Talk Talk book from Rocket 88 as I missed the first edition and needed something to ge me through this year. It is such a treat! Haven’t read all of it yet but the images and bits I’ve read so far are wonderful.
     
  13. JulesRules

    JulesRules Weaponized, Deranged Warthog Thug

    Location:
    Germany
    I don't. I find it fatiguing. I often don't notice these things but in this case, I do. Especially when I go to Natural History and hear how much more inviting the title track and "Such a Shame" sound on that disc. With the '97 remaster, near the title track's end I really feel I need to turn down the volume as it becomes overwhelming.

    Might have to hunt for an original mastering.

    I'm not sure I could tell the difference, but I think I've got an explanation. This was early digital and therefore the UK CD, in order to get the crossfade done, has probably gone through 1 additional conversion stage. With only 16-bit (I think?) resolution available, this will have had an impact on the sound.

    Just a theory though. I mean you could reproduce this in Audacity by switching off dither but I can't be bothered.

    I bought it blindly from JPC and got the US version :righton:
     
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  14. rob68

    rob68 Senior Member

    Location:
    Michigan
    Another reason to avoid the 1997 remastered IT'S MY LIFE CD is that Does Caroline Know is sped up.

    They were unable to find the original tape for that song when they did the remastering and had to use another source for it. I don't recall where I read it....maybe the liner notes for the CD?...but the speed difference is obvious to the ears.
     
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  15. JulesRules

    JulesRules Weaponized, Deranged Warthog Thug

    Location:
    Germany
    You're right, I found a video taken from the original vinyl LP. Odd.

    While I was looking for it, I also came across this live performance from 1984. I suppose everyone else already knows it but it's still worth posting:

     
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  16. tmtomh

    tmtomh Forum Resident

    I'm aware of the Does Caroline Know issue - and the fact that Such a Shame starts at full volume on the remaster and doesn't fade up like on the original. Nevertheless, my personal view is that the remaster has some sonic benefits over the original CD (among them better bass and overall frequency balance, and improved clarity, with some compression alas, but notably less than The Party's Over remaster).

    Certainly the remaster has some deficits relative to the original CD (the above issues plus the original is of course more dynamic) - which is why for this album I like both the original and the remaster.

    For The Party's Over I can't really deal with the sonics of the remaster, and for The Colour of Spring and Spirit of Eden there are better sonic alternatives to the remaster CD if one wants to look for something other than the original CDs. But for It's My Life, I'm going to stand by my co-preference for the original CD and the remaster. :hide: :)
     
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  17. Jimbino

    Jimbino Goad Kicker, Music Lover

    Location:
    Northern CA, USA
    Discovering a classic:
     
  18. Eleventh Earl of Mar

    Eleventh Earl of Mar Somehow got them all this far.

    Location:
    New York
    I still remember back in September 2015 when I was 18, I think this song took me aback. I still wasn't deep into art rock albums from the 80s, so hearing this kind of the first exposure into the huge amount of LPs from this era that I assumed was mostly a dead end for me
     
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  19. JulesRules

    JulesRules Weaponized, Deranged Warthog Thug

    Location:
    Germany
    Rick Wright, of all people, praised "Happiness is Easy" highly. That alone is something.

    It's also one of the few songs to prominently feature the Variophone, which I find an interesting instrument. (It's on several other songs from the Colour of Spring era... kinda wish they'd kept that for future albums.)
     
  20. kevin5brown

    kevin5brown Analog or bust.

    I'm thinking generically, not just regarding Talk Talk. But I 100% understand what you're saying here. But I wish I understood why that is. ... I'm listening to music I'm jammin' on. I crank it. But then I have to turn it down, because it becomes irritating. Why is that? Compression won't do that. Poor EQ will, jacked up lows and/or highs. Is that it? I'm also wondering about interpeak distortion. Basically, the D/A converter overloading on playback because there are too many 0dB peaks, and there's distortion added. And then I wonder if those things can be fixed somehow. And then I just sigh to myself, and try to find something better to listen to. Frustrating. Especially when there aren't any good alternatives ... Sigh ...
     
  21. JulesRules

    JulesRules Weaponized, Deranged Warthog Thug

    Location:
    Germany
    I think often it's a combination of both. I just dragged the Natural History and 1997 mastering into Audacity. Clearly the 1997 mastering is more compressed / limited, as it has a lot of peaks peaking at the same volume, whereas the Natural History mastering looks more "wavy" with a pretty natural development of louder parts.

    The spectrum also reveals more of a smiley EQ face on the '97 with more bass and treble.

    However, I don't have the same issues with the remasters of the following two TT albums, maybe because they are mixed less "pop" to begin with and they captured some very good instrument timbres.
     
  22. tmtomh

    tmtomh Forum Resident

    Yes, Natural History is indeed more dynamic - the mastering dates from 1990 and like the original Talk Talk album CDs it does not have the modern peak limiting and compression of the '97 remasters.

    It's worth noting that there are actually two different masterings of Natural History: The US and the UK/EU. The US is IMHO clearly superior - better bass, warmer, and a bit sweeter in the mids and treble. The 2007 and 2013 reissues of Natural History use the UK mastering. So my recommendation is the original 1990 US CD for that one - not to mention it has the two nice live performances tacked on to the end of it as well.
     
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  23. tmtomh

    tmtomh Forum Resident

    One minor additional note on the original 1980s It's My Life CDs, which I just remembered from reviewing my notes:

    The original West German and US CDs are bit-identical with each other. The original UK is level-shifted +0.2dB but is bit-identical to the other two when you level-match them.

    So all three use the same mastering. My best understanding/guess of the chronology was that the WG came out in 1985, followed by the UK in 1986 and the US in 1988.
     
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  24. zwolo

    zwolo Forum Resident

    Location:
    providence
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  25. JulesRules

    JulesRules Weaponized, Deranged Warthog Thug

    Location:
    Germany
    Huh, it seems I have the UK version (with the DVD from 2007).
     
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