Let's talk New Production Tubes (non-NOS) --- 12AX7

What this thread is NOT: Please don't post if the intent is to say "NOS is better," compare NOS to new production, and create a debate on that topic. I will ask the mods to delete those posts to help keep the discussion focused on comparing new production tubes. I am also looking in the NOS space for tubes, but would prefer to separate the topic - please don't offer or compare NOS tubes in this thread.

My new phono preamp amp takes three 12AX7 / 5751 tubes. It came with some "Low Noise" selected JJ 5751's (the $13 ones), and it never hurts to know what else is out there.

Research yielded good discussion among many types, I am looking to minimize cost and obtain the best value for the money. I am not looking for the cheapest, but the best value choice (the proverbial sweet spot). Again, this is for a phono preamp. As always with the low cost options, there never seems to be a consensus choice, some will say one is best and the next will say it is the worst!

Here are some that I found , but please offer others that you know of or tried:

• Psvane 12AX7 Treasure T-II: These can be purchased for as low as $74 for a matched pair on Amazon, and up to $100 from Grant Fidelity. Lot's of discussion on these, mostly good, but also those who think they are just the same tubes as the cheaper Chinese tubes, with cosmetic changes and a higher price.
  
• TJ Full Music 12AX7: These are $70 for a pair, and also a Chinese made tube, have seen them compared to the Psvane above, but don't know much more about them.
  
• Sovtek 12AX7 LPS: These get a lot of love on places like AK, and can be had for as low as $15 a tube from what I could find... of course these are made in Russia.
  
• Mullard CV4004 12AX7 Reissue: These are in upwards of $30 a tube, and think they are either Russian or Slovak made.
  
• Tung Sol ECC83: Another re-issue in the $30 range... like many above, they get those that swear by them.
• JJ 12AX7 Gold pin: Same as the ones that came in my phono preamp, but twice the price with gold pins.

That should get the discussion started hopefully. What have you tried, what do you use.... comparisons are always welcomed.

 

Love to read the responses to this post. Thanks. I have no experience with the fore-mentioned tubes in preamp position.

 

Depends what you're after. Are you looking for a brighter sound, a mellower one, etc?

FYI, NOS doesn't necessarily translate into a higher cost. The ones in high demand, absolutely! But there are some great values out there, if you care to go that route, which will cost the same as the Psvanes you mentioned.

Personally, all JJ tubes sound utterly lifeless to me. I don't get the love for the Sovteks either as it's (IMHO) a flashy but ultimately uninteresting tube. The Tune-Sol has nice mids and tends to be somewhat bright in a pleasant way. It's my personal go-to for current production tubes but 99% of the time, I'd still prefer to go for NOS when possible.

Haven't tried the Psvane or TJ Full Music, nor the Mullard. I know their 12AT7 is very well regarded, though.

 

I have used the Psvane 12AX7, ordered from GF. I found it to be a very quiet, very detailed sound in the pre amp phono section that I was using at the time. Likewise, the gold pin Genelex reissue, though a bit more etched-sounding perhaps. In both cases, and particularly when it comes to the phono section, it is worth buying them from a retailer that tests for low noise. I know that Upscale grades them; and I believe that GF also offers different grades if they have them in stock (and typically low-noise as the default if they don't have others on hand).

 

I already posted thoughts on the TJ Full Music tubes in my CJ Premier 15 phono preamp, so won't repeat it all here, but I like them so far, and mine were $60 pair and can be had cheaper.

 

I don't have an opinion. Haven't heard some of these at all, and others that I have heard I haven't heard in a long time (though I will say once, years ago, I was tracking a guitar part with a little Vibro Champ and I was loving the warm, creamy tone I got which I though was down to the early '60s Mullard long plate I had in there, then I remembered, I still had the Sovtek LPS in there and hadn't swapped in the vintage Mullard). But I just wanted to note the tubes below are all made by New Sensor in, I think, the same Russian factory (since there you seemed to be unsure about the Mullard noted below; New Sensor has the rights to a lot of these great old brand names). And B), I don't know if they're really properly characterized as "reissues." If you read this account of a dissecting of a 1962 I61 Blackburn Mullard
and a New Sensor "Mullard" you'll see there's not really been an effort to duplicate the construction (never mind the cathode coating) of the original -- Mullard ECC83 (12AX7) Reissue vs Original – A Physical Comparison I don't think New Sensor itself characterizes the tubes as "reissues," though in some cases they say they're trying to match the sound character of the old tubes.

 

This particularly applies to the Gold Lions, which I referred to above as Genelex, and which were never actually produced by the original Genelex (AFAIK). I see those old brand names on new tubes and I automatically think "reissue." It's perhaps the obverse of the overly generous use of "NOS" in describing older tubes. The taxonomy gets pretty complicated!

 

I have no experience with these either. Try them out and let me know!

 

I have rolled a number of different current production (as well as NOS) 12AX7s in an attempt to get the best sound possible inside of my SP8 preamp. And believe it or not, I found that the most magical-sounding combination of 12AX7 tubes inside of this preamp is a current production (Russian) Gold Lion 12AX7 followed by a Tungsol 12AX7. The gold Lions sound wonderful. They sound similar to the Sovtek 12AX7 LPS tubes, but they have much cleaner and more detailed highs. I find the LPS's to sound grainy and rolled-off on the top-end by comparison to the Gold Lions, and I personally do not care for this inside of my system. The (Russian) Gold Lions have a wonderful lower midrange, but are a bit lacking in the upper midrange IMO. Using a Tungsol 12AX7 in combination with the gold lions inside of my SP8 gives me the best of boths worlds: The wonderful lower mids of the (Russian) Gold Lions and the sweet, but detailed, upper mids and highs of the Tungsols.

It's too bad that EIs are no longer in current production, because they were my previous favorite new-production 12AX7 tube, right up until the time that they went out of production. However, In some ways this is good, because I never would have spent so much much time trying to find an alternative. But I actually like this new combination of tubes even better than I do EIs inside of my SP8. One caution is that the new production tunsols seem to be pretty noisy. So you may want to buy Tungsols which were selected for the lowest noise.

 

I only have experience with the Sovtek 12AX7 LPS. For me it's been reliable.

Whatever new 12AX7 tubes you choose, make sure to get them from a reputable dealer.
Quality seems to be all over the map, so make sure they are prescreened.

The video below talks about KT150, but I think the message is pertinent.


"Russian don't throw away anything. Every tube is different. Everything gets sold."

 

Any international forum members know that name of the tube company that owned by Hamish McAlpine of Tartan Films?

 

Here is a rushed reply, I buy all my 12AX7's from here.
I have purchase the Great Northern, the Electro Harmonix Gold, the Mullards, and my favorite the Genalex - Gold Lion ECC83/B759 (Premium). I might have the Preferred but I can't place my hands on it. I'm also going to try the CV4004. The Electro Harmonix Gold were the second best sounding (in my warmish) sounding system.

M~

 

I have tried every one on your list except for the TJs and I wouldn't be surprised if they were similar to the Psvane. Also tried Genelex Gold Lion and ElectroHarmonics.

The Tung Sols were the only ones that I could live with if I had to.

 

Great replies, on target to where I may be going and what my research bore out.

My Phono preamp uses three 12ax7's - in addition to two EF86 and one 12au7. The 12au7's are taken care of a very nice person / friend sent me a box of 20 or so 12au7's and it included things like two 7316 Amerpex from the early 70's, a CBS / Hytron 7730, two 7730 RCA from Harrison NJ early 70's, a few 5814(a)'s including GE, Raytheon.... among others. Believe it or not, just the one 12au7 alone is already making a difference.

Back to the topic, the 12ax7, I am down to a few new production types to try, call it a short list, but at the price of new production I might try a couple. But here are my top choices so far:

• Tung Sol 12ax7 New Production - around $45 for the trio - these get a lot of reviews, a lot of happy customers.... some opt for $20 more for the Gold pins, but in the Tung Sol case it is the same tube as the standard pin, and comes down to preference.(not everyone is a believer that gold pins are any better, YMMV - me, I like the idea of saving $20 since its the same tube).
  
• Genalex Gold LIons 12ax7 - these also come in a gold pin and standard - BUT in this case the standard in made in China, and is a short plate design, where the Gold Lions are Made in Russia and a long plate. There is close to $50 difference for the Gold pin, but unlike the Tung Sol they gold vs standards are a completely different tube. The Gold Lion with gold pins are about $100 for the trio. Everything I have read points to a good tube though.
  
• Psvane - still intrigued by these - price tag anywhere from $110 to $150 for three depending where I shop. Starting to wonder if they are worth a premium, but some really give these strong reviews. I have never seen on tube cause so much debate though --- very interesting.

I will probably find a good deal on a NOS set to compare to new production, still deciding what I want (but a different thread according to my own rules )

 

Happy rolling!

 

Yeah, and that goes for tubes too!

 

I have 12AX7 pairs of gold pins Gold Lions, Psvane MK II and TJ Full Music. The Gold Lions are nice, have plenty of detail but lack highs so they sound dull on my EAR 834 "clone". The Psvane 12AX7 Mk II are tubes I could perfectly live with, they have a very detailed sound, they're very very quiet and their sound is smooth and balanced, with a bit "up" on highs but far from being bright.
The TJ Full Music are my favourite, these and the Northern Electric 12AX7, which are the same tube just branded differently, are outstanding tubes that will get the most of your equipment. They sound smooth, warm, with the right touch of sweetness, they are dead quiet, I don't know what else to say about them as I personally love them.
They remind me both in their sound and the way they are built to the Sylvania/NEC 12AD7 tubes which were a stand in for 12AX7 but with extremely low noise and hum. But not only that, the two 12AD7 I've tried, the Sylvania and the NEC sound exactely the same and do inmediately the same: widen the soundstage and the separation between instruments. TJ Full Music do that too and look very much like the 12AD7's.

 

I will have to try the TJ Full Music and compare to my favorite vintage Mullard 12AX7 long plate.

 

Beware, your Mullards may end up indefinetely in a tray and you thinking you've been ripped off with the Mullards.
Now seriously,the TJ Full Music or the Northern Electric are serious contenders for many reputed NOS 12AX7 tubes but we all know that being new production tubes they won't most likely last as long as a NOS tube, but the TJ Full Music and Northern Electric are easy to get.

 

I do not believe you ever heard Mullard 12AX7 long plate. I think and so does the largest tube seller in the world that owns a Marantz 7C, Western Electric 300B amps and Klipschorn speakers the Mullard 12AX7 long plate exceeds Telefunken ECC803S performance. That Telefunken is a $1600 tube from Brent Jessee.

 

He may have thought you were talking about the Mullard new production tubes (12ax7, CV4004).

 

Both these tubes have caught my attention in researching... will have to take a closer look. I did not realize they were the same tube though. So many choices, and just as many opinions! You have to draw a line somewhere, good news is I have yet to pull the trigger though.

On another note, you can't possibly know how they will sound on my equipment though!!!

 

One thing about some of the new productions - some are harder to get than others.

For instance - Psvane 12ax7's - you really have two choices - buy them from Hong Kong or China (on Ebay or Amazon) or buy them from Grant Fidelity at a premium price (in Canada). It is a consideration for me, and does cause a little hesitation.

The TJ Full Music are similar - on Ebay from China, or again Grant Fidelity in Canada --- again at a premium. Of course there are probably other places, but they are not as mainstream for sure.

Northern Electric is a little easier to get, but still not as readily available as some of the other names (Tung Sol, Genalex, JJ, etc).

Then you have stuff like this on the Upscale Audio site (Why We Don't Sell Certain Brands; and Our Tube Prices ):
"In China, tube manufacturers have gotten hip to the fact that they are making some good stuff. They want to capitalize on that fact, but they can’t just triple their prices. What they do instead, is spray some grey matter inside the glass, call the tube “blah blah Treasure,” and jack up the price. Is the tube different? Yes... It’s three times the price. In some cases, many times more expensive than some of the finest new old stock (NOS) we sell. We're not going to ******** you, and have you feel creepy crawly about making more purchases later at Upscale Audio."

I bolded Treasure above because both the Psvane and TJ Full Music have gone by the name Treasure.... and pretty sure he is talking about one or both of these. The fun never stops.

 

I can only report on trials with my McIntosh C220 preamp several years ago. I tried used old stock Tele ribbed plates (don't recall the vintage), then some NOS Teslas from the 1970s that are apparently Telefunken ECC803S clones (made from the same parts/machines or something), and then new Gold Lion gold pins (whatever, the best version).

I thought the Gold Lions were the best sounding but all the others sounded VERY similar to me. The Gold Lions had a little more detail and musicality/whatever ... but probably if it were a life or death situation I couldn't tell all of them apart with any certainty! They all sounded much better than the then-stock generic Chinese tubes that came in the C220.

I thought the C220 was a bit lacking in detail at first with the stock tubes, these brought more apparent resolution ... also installing some Siemens and Halske NOS 12AT7-equivalent triple mica driver tubes in my 300B amps made them more 'crisp' and detailed which helped things too.

I think I ended up with the Gold Lions in the regular preamp/buffer section and the Teslas in the phono section (I didn't use the phono as much). I sold the C220 and later bought my Parasound P 7 which sounds as good or better. The C220 was sure sexy though, even my wife commented on it.