Let's Talk Technicolor: 2-Strip, 3-Strip, Everyone Strip

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by EVOLVIST, May 3, 2022.

  1. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Color pulses?? I'm not sure what you guys are talking about actually. Never seen an IB Tech print with that problem, ever.. I've seen Eastman "dubs" of old Tech movies with a color fade every revolution of the reel but that's not what you're talking about, obviously..
     
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  2. EVOLVIST

    EVOLVIST Kid A Thread Starter

    I'm just regurgitating what I've read, that a "color pulse" is a sudden shift in hue and back again, for a second or two. Just like Pulse! - Poof! and it's back. Not to be confused with one reel being worse off than the preceding reel, nor a bad optical.

    I've only seen it with Technicolor. It must be a fault within a print, because I've yet to see it in a full-blown restoration.
     
  3. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    What you are saying makes no sense. Pull a reel of Eastman out of storage, out of let's say a warm room that it has been in for 40 years. Run that reel and the back end of it will have a shift and the front end will not. Every time the reel revolves and you see every other 24 frames, the color will pulse because one side of the reel has faded and the other side of the reel not as much.

    Or, pull out one or two revolutions of film out of the can and look at it with your eyes. You should be able to see variations in color if you look from one hand to another.

    I don't know how else to describe it. This is Eastman problem not true Technicolor problems. Are we all on the same page with this??? I've seen hundreds of IB Tech prints projected and not once has there been any "pulse" or variation of color shift. I can lay my hands on many Blu-ray releases that say "Technicolor" but pulse every revolution of the reel meaning there is an Eastman interstep involved.
     
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  4. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    No, that's density flutter. Some call it "color breathing," which is pretty close to how it looks: color level or hue rises and falls in a pattern, due to chemical problems in the layers of emulsion.

    It's more rare with a Technicolor print (or negative), but it can happen. We've seen some awful stuff with old negatives and poorly-stored copies. There's nothing magical about Technicolor that can't stop it from aging or falling apart eventually. I've occasionally quoted Isaac Asimov: "Entropy can't be reversed." Everything ultimately falls apart -- diamonds, stars, even movie prints.

    Yes, little density shifts and stuff can happen. When they're small, we can fix them in post. We can also attack individual color channels (red / green blue) and fix density flutter problems there, or at least minimize them to the point where it's very, very difficult to see in a video image.
     
  5. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Good morning!

    I’ve been handling and projecting and collecting 16mm and 35mm IB Technicolor prints since the age of 14 in 8th grade in middle school and I’ve never once seen this problem with any of them. Only Eastmancolor.

    Of course, since prints aren’t used to make Technicolor Blu-rays, and nothing is processed chemically anymore, I’m not sure how there can be a problem at all in video mastering. Unless there is an Eastman interstep.

    I would appreciate being pointed to an example.
     
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  6. AppleCorp3

    AppleCorp3 Forum Resident

    I recently saw the Fathom presentation on the big screen for Garland’s 100th. Any idea if this print they sent around for this was based on that 4K presentation?

    One thing I noticed this time was that the colors were more dialed back from what I’ve seen previously (but in a good way…the Wicked Witch’s skin didn’t look radioactive). It looked more balanced overall, but I never know what they used for these special presentations.
     
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  7. Bob Casner

    Bob Casner Senior Member

    Location:
    Venice, California
    AppleCorp3,

    This would certainly have been digital projection from a DCP (Digital Cinema Package, basically a hard drive delivered to the theater in a padded case). Most likely derived from the same restoration used for the 4K disc, though this can have a higher bit rate and a wider color space.
     
  8. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Hey, old-timers, remember watching David O. Selznick's "The Adventures Of Tom Sawyer" (1938) on TV as a kid? There is a nice Blu-ray From Kino Lorber Studio Classics series.

    Watched it today, the Blu-ray came in a care package with "How Green Was My Valley," "Snow White And The Seven Dwarves" and "Ben Hur".. Thanks lukejosephchang.

    When I was a kid, I saw "The Adventures Of Tom Sawyer" on TV. I liked it but Victor Jory as Injun Joe perhaps played his part too well, that scene in the cave freaked me out and I remember hiding behind the couch (this was today). Ha. No. I was 6 but nonetheless, what a great bad guy! Gave me nightmares.

    When I was in high school I had the honor of helping project David O. Selznick's personal 1938 nitrate Technicolor print on a giant screen in a Hollywood Theatre. The actual dude who shot the film, the legendary James Wong Howe, was there, right before his death. It was exciting.

    He told us that he had so many fights with the Technicolor Company over lighting, etc. that he vowed to never work with them again and I don't think he ever did.. He broke all the rules, I mean in a good way, you know? The movie looks convincing today, not like it was shot on Stage 5..

    The amazing cave sequence was designed by the great William Cameron Menzies and combined with the mysterious Jack Cosgrove unit who painted in the tops of everything, convinced DOS that these two were right for Gone With The Wind. Indeed, he couldn't have made the movie without them.

    Now, the version of "The Adventures Of Tom Sawyer" I saw on TV in black & white was an edited TV reissue print made from an updated (sometime in the late 1940's) version with fresh opening logo and many cut scenes. On the Kino Lorber Blu-ray you can see both versions, the long version from 1938 and the shorter version. Not sure why anyone would want to watch the TV edited version though..

    I can see that this film has not been actually restored in the "Wizard Of Oz" sense, but it was worked on a lot for high-def., maybe some scenes had just a chemical sort of matched up, pieced together deal BUT, BUT, for some reason, it retains the look of the IB Tech print I saw projected in High School.

    In other words, it really has the true Technicolor look, especially in the reds. Can't fake that. I believe a few shots, maybe more, maybe the entire introduction/credits, etc. or maybe just the opticals came from Selznick's 1938 IB Tech nitrate print.

    So, if you like Technicolor, this film (unlike many restored Tech films on Blu-ray) really retains the look like most do not. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Depends. I like it but certain registration problems that I notice might put a few of you off. It shouldn't. This really looks like real Technicolor of the 1930's.

    That's a good thing!

    WARNING: There are many different versions of this PD gem out there. Only get the one pictured. It has rich, vibrant color with a true Technicolor look, bright, sharp imaging, totally a pleasure to watch again after so many years. Thank you Kino Lorber..


    914rNJ6+NTL._SL1500_.jpg
     
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  9. EVOLVIST

    EVOLVIST Kid A Thread Starter

    I'm down for The Adventures of Tom Sawyer. It's on my shortlist of KL titles. They do a good job. Even the "worst" of the ones I've seen from KL, Doctor Cyclops (1940) is highly watchable.

    @Steve Hoffman, if you ever get around to it, I'd like to read your impressions of The Garden of Allah from KL. As I wrote before, if you purchase directly from KL it's $7.99, so with shipping and tax that's maybe $12 bucks?

    I'll have to get Tom Sawyer in my next batch, though. I just ordered National Velvet (1944) and Ivanhoe (1952) from WAC, because I needed a few more full restorations in my diet, and Mamba (1930) from KL. I'm just about to exhaust all of the two-color Technicolor on Blu-ray.
     
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  10. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    OK, I ordered The Garden Of Allah. Will be interesting..
     
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  11. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    The Garden Of Allah (1936), Kino Lorber Blu-ray.

    Hadn't seen this all the way through since I was a kid and it was on channel 5. Didn't understand any of it then.

    Amazing things they did with that Technicolor camera, some of the best work I've ever seen. Deserving of the Oscar, yes.

    Blu-ray source looks like an early attempt (let's say 80's) of combining strips to make a color composite on low fade Eastman. A worthy attempt, good enough, I guess. No one is going to pay a million bucks to have it digitally aligned properly, it's PD.

    Marlene is great in this, glad I got it. Many thanks to @EVOLVIST for the nudge.

    David O's personal IB Tech print still exists, from the 1948 reissue, but it's a bit brownish. This Blu-ray is better for the long haul.

    To see what could be done with that GIANT Technicolor camera, this is the flick to watch.

    One thing I will say, it sounds like the soundtrack elements (music score/efx/dialogue) were remixed at the same time as the recombining. Sometimes the music goes right over the dialogue, sure sign of 1980's restoration goofs (same for GWTW at the same time.) Not a deal breaker.
     
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  12. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Oh, and it's nice to see the amazing closeups of Marlene from both sides of her face. Claudette Colbert could only have the left side of her face photographed so they had to block every shot in every movie she was ever in so that side was favored. DRIVES ME BONKERS to watch how they had to do it and takes me right out of the movie.

    With Marlene, no problemo, either side or from above and below works just fine..
     
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  13. EVOLVIST

    EVOLVIST Kid A Thread Starter

    Ivanhoe (1952) ~ Thee-strip, restored by WAC from the OG negatives, perfectly aligned, looked great, but didn't have that strong Technicolor "pop" like Elizabeth and Essex (1939) or Show Boat (1951).

    The movie? Oh, damn, it sucked! :laugh:

    I had never seen it before, but it's a classic, so as a blind purchase for a WAC title at $10, I was glad to pick it up. I thought it was a terrible film, though. But hey, not every film is for everyone.

    I think that George Sanders would have been better as Ivanhoe, as opposed to Robert Taylor, but nooooo, Sanders always has to be the villian (was he ever the hero in any film?), and though Taylor is a fine actor, he fell flat playing a British hero. Robert Taylor would have been a finer villian.

    Speaking of Taylors, Elizabeth Taylor was too beautiful for the screen. What a magnificent specimen of a woman. And good God, so was Joan Fontaine! I couldn't believe how revealing Joan's top was. How could they have gotten away with those nipple protrusions in 1952? I guess the same way that got away with Marilyn Monroe, naked under the sheets in Niagara from 1953.

    I'm not one to go gaga over a starlet from the Golden Age of cinema, because either they're a granny today, or dead (mostly the latter), so if beautiful babies from 1952 were my only takeaways from Ivanhoe, then either the film failed me, or I failed the film. Hell, I even had my eye on some of the chamber maids. :rolleyes:

    There were some cute parts, however, like when three guys stood up to shoot three arrows, but then you'd see twelve arrows hit their marks. Bonanza! Or when two dudes start their swordfight, they don't aim for a leg, an arm, or the chest; they aim for the other guy's sword to get a good *clang* in. This isn't fencing, people! Get after it!

    So, in a way, I guess I had some fun with it. :righton:
     
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  14. Bob Casner

    Bob Casner Senior Member

    Location:
    Venice, California
    I've been looking at a site with lots of examples of actual IB print frames that include many of the 3-strip films on blu-ray rightly lauded here:
    filmcolors.org/timeline-entry/1301/
    I got there by googling filmcolors technicolor IV
    What struck me is how mediocre at best these looked, including
    A MATTER OF LIFE AND DEATH
    THE LIFE AND DEATH OF COLONEL BLIMP
    THE PRIVATE LIVES OF ELIZABETH AND ESSEX
    GARDEN OF ALLAH
    BLACK NARCISSUS
    THE WIZARD OF OZ
    THE RED SHOES
    And more ... there's not a single one I would choose to watch over their respective blu-ray discs.
    Sooo ... am I missing something? Maybe the process of photographing these frames is flawed, or maybe projecting these with an arc light source
    would make a difference, or ... ?
     
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  15. Bob Casner

    Bob Casner Senior Member

    Location:
    Venice, California
    On the other hand, I remember watching the (then) annual WIZARD OF OZ broadcast on network television with a
    25" Heathkit (crt) color tv a friend was eager to build for me and it looked great, apparently an IB print, but I don't
    think a vintage (c. 1939) print.
     
  16. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    You're looking at Barbara's work, she has def. ideas of how the stuff should look when photographed..
     
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  17. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Have you people never in your life seen Technicolor on the big screen? It's all about keep those intense color blown up big. Eastman can barely do it, only IB Tech prints could.

    You've never been to a Technicolor revival show or anything like that? Here in LA we have them on occasion, not as much now as in the past but still..
     
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  18. EVOLVIST

    EVOLVIST Kid A Thread Starter

    Goldwyn Follies (1938) ~ I'm pleased to have seen this. It's not a good film by any means, but it has its moments.

    You know, when one thinks of the standard "Follies" on film, they're usually light on story (if a story at all), and heavy on the bits. This is probably a mercy. I think the problem with this picture is that it's light on the bits and heavy on the story. The story is not very good, either. It's a film about making films, which is supposed to spoof Hollywood, but it does a soft job of it. I guess the idea is that anybody can make a good picture. They're snubbing their nose at the system, yet they're in the system.

    But the bits are generally first rate.

    The film is in nice condition. It doesn't look that far removed from the OG negatives; however, it was surely printed on Eastman stock and faded over time. It's still a good look, but it would look better restored. It won't happen, though.
     
  19. Manapua

    Manapua Forum Resident

    Location:
    Honolulu
    I watched Beau Brummell on TCM yesterday and was astounded by the color palette. Talk about a feast for the eyes! Blues and reds in particular were very well represented. And of course, it's a Warner Archives restoration from a 4K scan. By the way, Party Girl is currently eight bucks on the 'Zon.
     
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  20. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
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  21. EVOLVIST

    EVOLVIST Kid A Thread Starter

    Gee, everywhere I go these days it's Liz Taylor this, or Elizabeth Taylor that. I bought two films recently, both with Liz Taylor, but I didn't realize that she was in one of them until I purchased them.

    Then, I got the 4K release of Giant (1956) yesterday, and I had forgotten that I pre-ordered it. :laugh: Elizabeth Taylor.
     
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  22. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    What did you think? They've just posted screencaps in bluray and while it might be good and doesn't look amazing. I've watched In the heat of the night last night and I was impressed with PQ.

    I haven't noticed that much more of Liz lately, have you seen Who is afraid of Virginia Woolf? That's a movie!

    I wish they release Cleopatra in 4K
     
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  23. Bob Casner

    Bob Casner Senior Member

    Location:
    Venice, California
    Vidiot,
    Thank you for this - I had no idea Ms. Flueckinger was so accomplished, and her METHODOLOGY certainly seems sound, she even tested 7 REALLY high end film scanners!
    And it seems she has a relatively recent BOOK which is not too expensive, I believe I’ll buy a copy.

    EVOLVIST,
    I’ve personally experienced buying a blu-ray (CDs, too) of a title I ALREADY OWNED (sigh) - I give’em away to a friend (embarrassing!) though the friend is happy to have them!
    Since you seem to be exploring early 3-strip, have you seen
    DODGE CITY 1939 starring Errol Flynn
    NOTHING SACRED 1937 starring Carole Lombard and Fredric March? This one is available direct from Kino Lorber (“restored edition”) for $5.99!
     
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  24. Bob Casner

    Bob Casner Senior Member

    Location:
    Venice, California
    Manapua,

    These two from Warner Archive ARE very nice, though not 3-strip: shot on single strip Eastmancolor (Kodak) color negative film.
    I don’t have the BEAU BRUMMELL
    (more Liz Taylor!) but DID buy PARTY
    GIRL some time ago (not for 8 bucks though!)
     
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  25. EVOLVIST

    EVOLVIST Kid A Thread Starter

    I haven't seen Giant yet. It will be this weekend, since I don't get much time during the week to watch TV.

    I haven't seen Who is Afraid of Virginia Woolf, either. Now, Cleopatra (1963), I've seen. It would probably look stunning in 4K, especially with HDR. The BD release is great; still, the colors are a little faded. I'm afraid it won't happen, though, as Disney owns it now, but who knows.

    I'll report back on Giant. I've read reviews and it sounds like a mixed bag. On the other hand, MPI did the work, the same team as WAC titles, so it probably looks as good as it will ever look.

    Funny that you mention two things that have been on my mind.

    1.) The Gangs All Here (1943) - speaking of friends; I had mentioned that my friend ripped me a copy of this film, telling me that it was the MoC version. Nope. When I was over at his place last weekend, I spied a Twilight Time version and asked him if this is what he ripped. He said yes. Bummer! But! - I found a sealed MoC copy over in England, and it is being shipped to me, all told, for $38. Not bad at all, considering what others are selling it for. I really, really like this movie. It's light on plot, but every musical number is a gem. Catchy as hell.

    2.) Nothing Sacred (1937) - Yes, I have it and watched it last weekend. I bought it from Kino, as well, for a song. More on this one later, as I'm still formulating my thoughts (for what it's worth). But did I enjoy it? Yes!

    I've been a little hesitant about Dodge City. I'm afraid of what I've read about the encode. Then again, where else am I ever going to see it again? My father liked westerns a lot, so I remember brief bits of this film from when I was a kid, but only because it was in color, while most of the westerns were in B&W.

    According to Haines' and Basten's books, Beau Brummell (1954) is three-strip Technicolor. I've never seen it, so I can't attest to the look, though. Wikipedia does not list it at all, but Wiki has lead me astray too many times, and it's incomplete. Other sites on the internet are woefully lacking, too.
     
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