Let's Talk Technicolor: 2-Strip, 3-Strip, Everyone Strip

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by EVOLVIST, May 3, 2022.

  1. Tim Lookingbill

    Tim Lookingbill Alfalfa Male

    Location:
    New Braunfels, TX
    So it's still possible to engineer a digital sensor using RGB filter array but the analog to digital conversion would have to be worked out in software to arrive at the specific and exact look of the positive yellow, magenta and blue matrices shown in that article.

    Otherwise you're right back to making a regular digital camera.
     
  2. Bob Casner

    Bob Casner Senior Member

    Location:
    Venice, California

    Tim, I’m sorry - no!
    The original 3-strip camera was just as I described:
    GREEN filter - light goes straight through to panchromatic B&W film.
    MAGENTA filter (at right angle to the GREEN filter) which IS red + blue - light goes to orthochromatic b&w film (sensitive to blue ONLY) exposed through its BASE (so film base > blue sensitive emulsion > red filter layer ON TOP of the emulsion), then to panchromatic film emulsion (2 strips running through camera sandwiched together emulsions facing each other).
    So there really IS no blue filter - the first film the light hits after going through the MAGENTA filter (remember this is red plus blue) does not REGISTER red. And the RED filter is NOT built into the CAMERA, it’s COATED on top of the blue record film’s emulsion (and washed away during processing). I hope this makes sense.

    IIRC, the Bauer digital sensor using a repeating array of four filters: one red, one blue, and two green - they’re rendered into something that makes visual sense to us by a process called “demosaicing.”

    For something entirely different, look up Foveon sensor!
     
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  3. Bob Casner

    Bob Casner Senior Member

    Location:
    Venice, California
    That IS a regular digital camera! The (Bayer) sensor is black & white with a repeating pattern of RG and B filters (REALLY SMALL ones) overlaid - I believe you’re trying to “reinvent the wheel.” If you shoot in RAW format you get all the sensor data (AFTER “demosaicing”) and it’s highly “malleable,” you can even buy software packages that enable you to emulate various different black & white or color FILM STOCKS!

    I believe the magic of Technicolor was not in the IB prints but in the CAMERAS. Of course that print process was vital to make the whole system viable commercially , but the gorgeous restorations we enjoy on disc (or lower quality streaming) are pretty much NEVER sourced from those prints.

    By the way, the IB printing matrices carried yellow, magenta, and CYAN dyes (cyan = blue + green).
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2022
  4. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Another plug for Dietrich and Boyer in "The Garden Of Allah." This Blu-ray is probably the best this PD film is ever going to look. It's OK but (for a few million) it could probably be really restored nicely. No one in their right mind would do it as it would be immed. stolen by every bootleg co in the world. No way to get the money back.

    Anyway, I watched the movie tonight with my 12 year old daughter. Had to stop the film many times to explain things that were confusing for her but I must say, Dietrich was amazing in this, so unlike all her acting style in her other films.

    I'd say (almost 100% sure) that this is an early 1980's low fade Eastman creation, made by parts of the camera negs and David O's personal print. The opticals, credits, etc. are for sure from his print. They did the best they could and it's such a great movie it is wonderful even like this. The camerawork is amazing.

    The sound? Well, they had the three channel optical soundtracks, that's for sure. It's remixed. And, of course, in the 1980's, they put the orchestra in fake stereo (like they did with GWTW back then) and used that ****ty 1980s noise reduction that just kills the top end when the level goes down.

    Also, for at least this Blu-ray, the sound (music) is out of phase sometimes, summed to mono from a fake stereo creation, throwing it badly out of phase in certain sections. Same thing happened to GWTW in many versions. Rookie mastering mistake, nothing like GIANT but still, stinks.

    And when (as even my daughter noticed) the music swells right over the dialogue it's downright annoying. Total 80's mixing bullcrap.

    NONETHELESS, this is a classic film and is worth the price. This is as good as it's ever going to get and it should be in everyone's library. It is a movie unique in Hollywood, nothing like it and you can BET that Korda and the Archers studied this film over and over. I'd bet good money on that..

    Over and out.
     
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  5. Tim Lookingbill

    Tim Lookingbill Alfalfa Male

    Location:
    New Braunfels, TX
    Is it this one?...

    The Garden of Allah Blu-ray

    The screengrabs are amazing on that site.
     
  6. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

  7. Manapua

    Manapua Forum Resident

    Location:
    Honolulu
    The reviewer for that blu-ray says the MGM dvd looks better color-wise although the BR has better detail and grain. Anyone seen this version?
     
  8. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Last edited: Jul 9, 2022
  9. Bob Casner

    Bob Casner Senior Member

    Location:
    Venice, California
  10. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    I know, I was laughing as well. Great review. Bad movies that we love and can watch over and over again. That review really hit the nail on the head!

    "Rosson used the skills and techniques he’d mastered in black and white to soften the tones of the Technicolor process, which required intense lighting that could render a palette harsh and even downright garish. The results are nothing short of hypnotic: you don’t so much watch this film as let it wash over you. It may be the only time in your life you ever cry out, “Good God, look at that beige!” Rosson unspools such magic it almost distracts you from the storyline. For that, he should have gotten another award.''
     
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  11. EVOLVIST

    EVOLVIST Kid A Thread Starter

    Right. My point being, we still have to classify them as Technicolor, or we have no other place to go when discussing them. Technicolor then becomes extremely narrow if we exclude everything that's not a restoration from the OG negs, or a scan of an IB print.

    Besides, I thought that the "Everyone Strip" in the title should cover the rest of the Technicolor gamut, whatever that is, and how we view it. :)

    Just my 2 cents for the day, as the eagle has landed, a parcel from from KL which includes The Adventures of Tom Sawyer (1938) and Cobra Woman (1944) among others.
     
  12. Manapua

    Manapua Forum Resident

    Location:
    Honolulu
    I found Tom Sawyer uneven in this presentation. Nice looking at times, not so much in other spots. I guess WAC has given me unrealistic expectations. Funny thing about this one is as it played, I had feelings of deja vu and then it hit me. Sometime in the mid-60s, my elementary school class screened this for us as they occasionally did. I remember most of us being terrified of Injun Joe.
     
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  13. Tim Lookingbill

    Tim Lookingbill Alfalfa Male

    Location:
    New Braunfels, TX
    Good points and then you'll have to rule out the dye transfer print process that's an abomination to the classic Technicolor of the late '30's into the '50's but captures the eye popping color as if that's why we like the look of Technicolor.

    The 3 Strip Technicolor article I posted showing the dye transfer pigments of dull magenta, yellow ochre and dull cyan is made that way intentionally to reduce the garish dye transfer look of say the fairly recent

    Pearl Harbor...that uses the dye transfer print process.

     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2022
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  14. Tim Lookingbill

    Tim Lookingbill Alfalfa Male

    Location:
    New Braunfels, TX
    I applied those dull dye transfer pigments from that article in a gradient map of the B&W channels of red, green and blue of a portrait I shot digitally outdoors of an old friend and got similar muted tones but not exactly in Photoshop.

    I'm going to make adjustments to saturation to these dye pigments and see what comes up.
     
  15. Tim Lookingbill

    Tim Lookingbill Alfalfa Male

    Location:
    New Braunfels, TX
    Here's a screenshot of the gradient map technique in Photoshop...I know...It needs work.

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. Bob Casner

    Bob Casner Senior Member

    Location:
    Venice, California

    Just my humble opinion, but I think there are some problems here:
    There’s no way of knowing how accurately the colors on this site are presented (and)
    These frames are from THE AFRICAN QUEEN, one of the LEAST colorful Technicolor films made! (As EVOLVIST pointed out many pages back).

    You can go back to the 1934 Technicolor short “La Cucaracha” and see HIGHLY saturated colors, or the amazing 1945 ZIEGFELD FOLLIES which predates AQ by several years.

    With dye transfer movie (as well as still photo prints made on PAPER) there are a lot of adjustments that can be made that affect their “look,” including adjustments to the acid bath used to rinse the matrices between soaking up the dye(s) and transferring them to the prepared film blank or paper that become the print. One of these chemicals used was also known around households as CALGON (!)
     
  17. Tim Lookingbill

    Tim Lookingbill Alfalfa Male

    Location:
    New Braunfels, TX
    The reason Technicolor looks the way it does (a painting) back then is due to the dye transfer print process which is very controllable. Famous photographer William Eggleston loved the control he had over each dye mixing function that he's known for "The Look" of his Kodachrome dye transfer prints...

    William Eggleston - unseen Kodachrome dye transfer process photos on show for the first time ever | photography | Agenda | Phaidon

    As a photographer with a long history in the image reproduction and printing industry as well as photo-realistic painter, cartoonist, graphic artist and pre-press technician working in darkrooms doing color seps for commercial printers, I know what I'm doing with the color mixing process. I know it's controllable. You can tweak it easily. I'm not claiming what I've shown in the gradient map demo that it's an exact process to Technicolor. I'm showing the process and how to control it.
     
  18. Tim Lookingbill

    Tim Lookingbill Alfalfa Male

    Location:
    New Braunfels, TX
    Quite a few digital imaging professionals like to have software to do the heavy lifting of making changes to an image to achieve "A Look". It's fast and easy. Youtube tuts show these short cuts on emulating color processing of old.

    I think the closest you can digitally emulate an old color mixing process is follow close how the process works and how sticking to it creates a unique final result that can't be achieve with a fast and easy YouTube tut.
     
  19. Bob Casner

    Bob Casner Senior Member

    Location:
    Venice, California
    Tim,

    I’ve seen that Eggleston show at the Rose Gallery in the Bergamot Station arts complex in nearby Santa Monica California as well as many others, including later shows of large (32 X 48” image size on 44 X 60” sheets, IIRC) inkjet prints all of each beautiful. He shot a lot of Kodachrome (the multi volume books-in-slipcase CHROMES, which I have) and later, Kodak color negative film (THE DEMOCRATIC FOREST, which I also have). I look at some of his pics and think they’re brilliant, others I think why is this even a picture? <g>

    I’m confident that I’ve seen more (stills on paper) dye transfer prints “up close and personal” than anyone on any SH forum. I OWN three from photographer Jay Maisel and two I had made by K&L Color Lab in NYC ( long defunct) from my own Kodachromes - I even managed to successfully make color seps and masks myself and a decent print (with help for the making and rolling matrices part with a friend who worked at the Mattel toy company).

    So I have a good working knowledge of this stuff! Back in my working days I had the fantasy that when I retired I would rent a garage somewhere and make dyes of my own photos as a hobby - now I feel inkjet prints are just as good (and a little SHARPER!)
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2022
  20. Tim Lookingbill

    Tim Lookingbill Alfalfa Male

    Location:
    New Braunfels, TX
    Why does your SHF profile indicate you're a retired mailman?

    And what is your point concerning your understanding of the color mixing process of Technicolor which requires transparencies which make a big difference in the look compared to prints on paper. Again small differences make big changes that have to be controlled.

    That's what digital allows to happen. Mix color in the transparent light realm.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2022
  21. Bob Casner

    Bob Casner Senior Member

    Location:
    Venice, California

    I remember a few years ago asking photoshop expert Lee Varis about software packages and/or other means to emulate Kodachrome and he basically said it was a fool’s errand, I should just use photoshop or Lightroom to get there “by eye.”

    Photographer and Lightroom book author Seth Resnick had a “recipe” for adjustments to emulate Kodachrome he was using back when he was shooting Canon DSLRs, maybe he’s tweaked them for the Nikons he’s now using!
     
  22. Bob Casner

    Bob Casner Senior Member

    Location:
    Venice, California
    I AM a retired mailman! What I did for a LIVING doesn’t define my interests or what ELSE I do (or did!)

    I had a full photo education in college, was a Photographer’s Mate in the Navy, and thought I would become a professional photographer, until it slowly dawned on me that it would be a life of constantly hustling and selling myself, which just doesn’t suit my temperament - also that doing it for a living might well kill the joy I take in it. I never stopped shooting, going to galleries, and educating myself going to meetings of professional photographers and their presentations.
     
  23. Tim Lookingbill

    Tim Lookingbill Alfalfa Male

    Location:
    New Braunfels, TX
    I'm familiar with those Lee Varis and software packages that provide "Looks" like bleach bypass. And he's right, it's a fool's errand. None looked right. There was a YouTube dude who came up with using a black key line transparency overlay blend effect as a way to dull and stress color called the Draggan effect or something. It was so obvious that it was digitally manipulated and artificial.

    I was thinking maybe the process of smashing dye into gelatin celluloid as is done in the old Technicolor dye transfer process is what gives its unique look. I'm familiar with the look of the African Queen color sep pigments from mixing paint for a four color process print on t-shirts which were too dull when printed on white surfaces...looked like poop. If I used the CMYK pigments of today with the gradient map the old man would be too over saturated.
     
  24. Tim Lookingbill

    Tim Lookingbill Alfalfa Male

    Location:
    New Braunfels, TX
    Your previous comments had an authoritative tone with no backing of experience that came off as argumentative for the sake of arguing which is a well known behavior in ALL FORUMS on the internet. You've chosen a worthy hobby. I now do this as a hobby as well mostly photography dabbling in audio editing. I like to get into the technical process because I believe that is what makes all art both imaging and in music come across genuine and authentic.
     
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  25. Bob Casner

    Bob Casner Senior Member

    Location:
    Venice, California

    Clearly I failed here - it was never my intention to be dismissive or rude: it's hard to convey tone in writing, so ... I apologize, DEEPLY!

    In my defense, I've done a deep dive on all these topics (excepting those I hope I've made clear are my opinions) for a long time because they fascinate me, and regarding the
    technical aspects about the 3-strip cameras, and dye transfer printing both still (on paper) and movie (on film) I'm confident I have the facts right. So when I see what I consider
    a clear factual error I feel compelled to "weigh in" - I should have been more (or even a little?) tactful!

    By the way, Tim - I love your "handle" Alfalfa Male: nice play on words!
     
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