Listenin' to Jazz and Conversation

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Lonson, Sep 1, 2016.

  1. chervokas

    chervokas Forum Resident

    Oh yeah, no question. I just don't think 60 and 70 years later a lot of those JATP and jam session recordings make for great listening. Some are fun and novel. None of 'em are bad or anything. But I think they're mostly kind of neither fish nor fowl recordings. They don't really have the freewheeling, unself-conscious, free invention of a real informal jam session at its best, and they don't have the kind real communicative give and take of a working band performance or even jam. They're just kind of strings of solos. For me, as a listening experience, I don't find they've aged that well, though some are more exciting than others. They're more like novelty time capsules than great performances that reward repeated listening.
    Walter H and markp like this.
  2. chervokas

    chervokas Forum Resident

    Well there are tons and tons of Granz recordings for all his labels, Clef and Verve and Pablo, that are just great, awesome, all-time jazz recordings and all-time faves of mine. I have no beef with Granz. I'm just not so enamored of the jam session and JATP dates.
  3. Beatnik_Daddyo'73

    Beatnik_Daddyo'73 Music Addiction Personified

    rxcory, Erik B., Berthold and 9 others like this.
  4. jay.dee

    jay.dee Forum Resident

    Barcelona, Spain
    And what is your stance regarding conservatory non-contemporary music? Aren't then all the early 20th century or earlier compositions essentially dead styles too, which are constantly resurrected by academic perpetuators who exploit the nostalgia some listeners have for those older periods of music?

    I mean, what's the difference between J@LC and any classical conservatory? Or between Wynton striving for the recreation of be-bop or earlier jazz and a conservatory director/soloist focusing on reviving interest in traditional baroque or romantic music?

    I don't want to defend Wynton Marsalis here, especially his arrogant opinions on what constitutes real jazz, but I'd like to understand why the preservationist work carried by Marsalis is viewed in such a negative way, while the preservationist work carried by music academies/conservatories is usually lauded.
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  5. Dan Steele

    Dan Steele Forum Resident

    Chicago suburbs
    Lee Morgan with Fathead Newman

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  6. Tribute

    Tribute Forum Resident

    Critics are a breed unto themselves. The trends of accepted criticism form a sine wave, going up and down, back and forth over time. The majority of critics tend to follow what is the accepted norm of the day. This goes for all forms of art, not just jazz or the "new thing" of any art form.

    I think too many listeners, or followers of any art form (or even politics), pay too much attention to critics in determining what they expose themselves to and even their own opinions. I keep hearing from friends things like "it did not get good reviews", or even specific citations of a particular critic's opinion. To me, all that stuff is just someone else's opinion. Not facts. I'll listen and have my own opinion, my own experience.

    I was once a serious student of poetry, the entire history of poetry. I had one huge wall of books of poetry (and still have most of that). I had another large wall of books of literary criticism, books about poetry. I got rid of virtually that entire wall of criticism. I do not need to read another person's interpretation of a poem.
  7. Tribute

    Tribute Forum Resident

    I know what you mean, as I myself prefer a session or live date led by one individual or group. But they were a remarkable contribution and truly the first recorded "jazz as it was played live" in history. They were not artificial in any way.

    I never liked the nature of jazz, especially live jazz, as a string of obligatory solos by each member of the band. To me, that can be somewhat boring. It still goes on today at many gigs. I would sometimes prefer that a series of different compositions possibly feature certain individuals, rather than everybody has to solo on every piece. Come to think of it, that is one reason why Duke Ellington was so great. He did not make each composition and performance a string of solos.

    Granz did enjoy the energy of after hours "cutting sessions" in his youth (the late 30's) when each musician tried to outdo the excitement of the soloist who preceded him. Cutting sessions just do not exist in today's live jazz world. If a band member tried to outdo his boss, he might just be out of the band. There are few "after-hours" gigs any more, where no one was the boss.
    Fender Relic likes this.
  8. Tribute

    Tribute Forum Resident

    One of my favorite stories from my aunt (an exotically beautiful lady), who saw so much great live music, was how her date at the Charlie Parker gig in 1951 said to her at the end of Bird's show, "Hey, let's go to my place and get my drums and go up to Harlem to an after hours place."

    She told me she refused, and that she did not have any interest in seeing his drumstick.
  9. Tribute

    Tribute Forum Resident

    I have to add about the JATP & Jam Session dates: Any time that I can hear a high fidelity solo by Charlie Parker, Lester Young, Ben Webster, Johnny Hodges (and several others that I will not list), I am there and cannot ignore it.
    peter1 and markp like this.
  10. Robitjazz

    Robitjazz Forum Resident

    Liguria, Italy
    I think that there are different perspectives. To an European jazz fan Granz is the producer and the promoter who brought into Europe great American masters or pioneers, almost legendary figures. Probably on those sessions one did not hear the best Young or Hawkins or Jacquet. You Americans had been luckier than us, but we Europeans (Italians) could hear them live finally.
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  11. dennis the menace

    dennis the menace Forum Veteran

    I`ve been listening to it almost everyday since its release. Love it !!
    Kirsten, xybert and Beatnik_Daddyo'73 like this.
  12. dennis the menace

    dennis the menace Forum Veteran

    Sonny Rollins - The Bridge (ORG ORGM-1078)

    Love the album and love this SACD version remastered by Bernie Grundman.

    rxcory, Erik B., dZp and 15 others like this.
  13. Lonson

    Lonson Don't Get Around Much Anymore Thread Starter

    Great music!
    Robitjazz and xybert like this.
  14. Lonson

    Lonson Don't Get Around Much Anymore Thread Starter

    The only thing I like reading less than the Marsalis brothers opinions is the opinions of others about the Marsalis brothers.

    Listening to the new OS for my DAC, "Windom," and it is sounding quite nice.

    Right now
    Gary McFarland "Soft Samba" Verve Japan cd.

    lschwart, peter1, Six String and 5 others like this.
  15. markp

    markp I am always thinking about Jazz.

    I'm the same age as the Marsalis brothers, so not possible for me to be nostalgic for Miles Davis, because I was not born or a child during the 1st & 2nd great quintet eras. Listening to a lot of the young jazz musicians during the late 80's and early 90's, who were about the same age as me, did start me on a journey through the history of a jazz, that led me to Miles. Now I love and revere all of Miles pre-1976 hiatus music. And still enjoy the later artists Miles so clearly influenced.
  16. Kirsten

    Kirsten I sing my sorrow, and I paint my joy. J. Mitchell

    I remember that I got irritated with Wynton when he was younger because he made a list of who young musicians should listen to in order to understand how jazz developed and he did not mention one single white musician.
    So i.e. he said piano players should check out Ahmad Jamal, Wynton Kelly and Herbie Hancock. But no mention of Bill Evans. But in recent years that has changed. Now he mentions musicians purely on their merits. No matter what color they have.
    And his bands reflects that too.
    But even though he irritated me back then when he spoke, I did buy and listen to his records.
    I mean the Cat could PLAY! (and stil can) ( and I don't think that I, raised in Europe, will ever understand the complexities of the american south....)
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  17. Mugrug12

    Mugrug12 nothing gold can stay



    Dial S for Sonny

    Japanese reissue from 1977
    Kirsten, Erik B., Blackie and 10 others like this.
  18. dennis the menace

    dennis the menace Forum Veteran

    Sun Ra - Jazz In Silhouette (Evidence ECD-22012-2)

    lschwart, rxcory, ReadySteady and 8 others like this.
  19. G L Tirebiter

    G L Tirebiter Forum Resident

    Can't have too much Dolphy. I'm currently spinning "iron man", on side one of a two-fer on Douglass, "Jitterbug Waltz ". Hutcherson and Woody Shaw among the sidemen. Great stuff.

    Spent the day digging a trench behind a retaining wall that I need to move. The ditch digging should have put me in the mood for some Merle Haggard, who, according to the recent Ken Burns epic, dug ditches for a while after release for San Quentin. And I was in the mood, but couldn't locate any Merle on vinyl. I know its here somewhere...
    pitro, charlesp, xybert and 2 others like this.
  20. Fender Relic

    Fender Relic Forum Resident

    You're an ironman and like James Brown...the hardest working man in.... the circle at least. Dig.

    Love that Jitterbug Waltz but played the Legrand Jazz version for the wife yesterday and she didn't like it.

    I haven't listened to my Merle vinyl in quite some time but I did spin some John Cash this morning.
  21. Roger Thornhill

    Roger Thornhill Forum Resident

    Ilford, Essex, UK
    He got that attitude directly from Crouch who was vary dismissive of Bill Evans because he felt he didn't swing.

    There's a bit in here about the Burns series and their views on white musicians including Bill Evans.

    But then you look at who hired Bill Evans - Miles, Mingus, Oliver Nelson, George Russell.

    I know whose opinion I trust...
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  22. G L Tirebiter

    G L Tirebiter Forum Resident

    Probably they were thinking about the rich folks in their fancy dining cars.....
    Fender Relic likes this.
  23. Fender Relic

    Fender Relic Forum Resident

    I'm circling back thru some of the Jazz LP's from this past summer's big buy and one that I'm really enjoying is...


    I've never owned any Joe Henderson LP's so this is a real thrill to get aquainted with. 1984 DMM. I'm finding these DMM's are a bit thin but fill out nicely with the "loudness" button on my Marantz 2230. All the ones I picked up are in near mint condition. The guy was a reel to reel taper so I have a feeling these were only played once.
    rxcory, Erik B., pitro and 14 others like this.
  24. Tribute

    Tribute Forum Resident

    My guess is that they desperately wanted to be on board those trains and that the sound was mental torture.
    Fender Relic likes this.
  25. Six String

    Six String Senior Member

    That was my first JH album decades ago when I purchased a nice NY stereo pressing. Still my favorite after all these years.
    angelo73, Erik B. and Fender Relic like this.

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