Lounge LCR MKIII high end?

I've had my Lounge LCR MK III for about a week now. I noticed right out of the box that there seems to be a bit less high end than what I'm used to (immediately prior to switching to the Lounge I was using the phono stage on a NAD 165 preamp, and prior to that a Musical Fidelity V-LPS).

Tonight I cued up a nice pressing I have of the self-titled Montrose album and started a/b-ing it with a 24/96 needle drop I'd done using my old rig (Technics SL-1600 with Ortofon 2M Blue and Musical Fidelity V-LPS phono stage). The difference in high end when compared to my current rig (VPI Classic 2 with Ortofon 2M Black and the Lounge LCR MK III) is pretty stark - there's definitely a lot more high end from the old system.

This is not scientific by a long shot, since there's a bunch of other gear that has changed since I did the needle drop, but it seems like either the Lounge rolls off the top end, or the last two phono stages I was using exaggerated it. Or I'm nuts.

Am I crazy? Can anyone else who has the Lounge comment?

I think I will dig out the Musical Fidelity V-LPS tomorrow and do a direct comparison again using my current turntable setup.

 

I'm not going to do this justice, but you do seem to be focusing on the phono pre when you have different cartridges, tonearms, and tables in the mix.

Generally, I'd think that the VPI is doing less to excite the signal. There are so many little moments where resonance gets extended harmonically. It's easy to recognize this tizzy excited sound on the top end.

I'd be purposeful in the recordings I used to compare. Try something tough, like massed strings. And, as you suggest, plug different phono stages into the same source chain.

 

I've been very satisfied with the high end I'm hearing with the Lounge, and I prefer a bright sound in general. Since using the Lounge in my system I've heard it with two different cartridges, the Goldring Eroica H high output MC that I currently use, and a Clearaudio MM I tried for a while. The key difference I heard between the two was in the midrange. The MM cart sounded much too thick in the mids for my taste, but the treble was just fine.

I assume you are using the same interconnects on both phono stages? If not that too would have an effect. I use a Signal Cable Silver Resolution phono interconnect from the Turntable to the Lounge and from there to the amp have used both Signal Silver Resolution, and Harmonic Tech Silver interconnects. I recently added a Lounge Copla Step up amp and am currently using a Better Cables Silver Anniversary interconnect from the Lounge to the Copla, and then the Harmonic Tech out to the amp, the high end remains very satisfying to my ears.

 

Lots of music lovers want to A/B new gear with existing gear. Me too. The problem is that we are already fully used to the existing gear. We know all its nuances, we're intimately familiar with the way in which it processes certain passages of certain albums. Then we switch over to the new phono stage, hear something different that we're not used to from a device with which we're completely unfamiliar and think why does this thing sound 'wrong'?

Stop A/B'ing. Install and use the new phono stage exclusively for a few weeks. Only then should you A/B it with your previous phono stage as long as no other changes have been made in the system.

Forget about all of the foregoing if you've also made other changes to your system(s) simultaneously with the addition of the new phono stage. You don't then actually know the entire source(s) of the difference you're hearing. A/B'ing an analog reproduction with a 24/96 needle drop made with a different setup is not actually A/B'ing in that you're not comparing the change of a single item but rather the effect of changing from one system to another. You're not actually comparing stages.

IMO, one change at a time. Spend weeks listening to music and assessing the merit of that one change. Then (and only then) make another change if necessary.

 

x2

 

I got a new Lounge LCR III about 3 weeks ago. I have noticed the same thing.

On the one hand, the soundstage and mids are so much nicer now that at first I did notice it. But with certain recordings, I do find the highs are recessed.

My system is otherwise mid-fi at best - recapped Sansui AU-D11II integrated, SL-1200 MKI with rewired MKII tonearm and upgraded RCAs, AT440MLA cart, Totem Sttaf speakers. My previous phono stage was a recapped and refurbished Yamaha C4 pre w/Sumo Polaris power amp. So I changed amplification as well. But in swapping these amps out in the past, I never noticed a big change in high frequency response.

I'm giving it more time. Overall the Lounge is a big improvement and may continue to burn in. I may also mess around with different interconnects

And for recordings where I'd like to hear a bit more high end, the Sansui has nicely implemented (i.e. subtle, with two selectable frequency bands) TONE controls!

 

It's the lack of smearing from the passive RIAA in the LCR.

 

I actually have a few needle drops I did with the new turntable setup and the NAD phono stage I was using before I got the Lounge. I will dig those up and compare (and maybe post samples). The only difference between my current setup and the one I used for those needle drops is the phono stage, plus the addition of the VPI ring clamp and HRX weight that I'm now using.

 

Smearing? Can you elaborate?

 

apparently you aren't sure if it is.
but seriously, which setup sounds more accurate, say compared to a quality digital source?

 

Start playing different material through your system. I think you will notice that you hear more differences in pressing/mastering quality than before. Also with less smearing you can turn up the level more without things getting shouty or congested. The smearing I am referring to comes from many technical aspects in phono preamp designs. In my experience two big culprits that cause smearing are surface mount components and active feedback RIAA topology. For the surface mount components (called SMD) the capacitors made this way are almost always trading compact size for performance. As for the feedback RIAA the time delay of the high frequencies feeding back through usually a consumer grade op-amp will cause some ringing that smears the high frequencies. What this does for your listening experience is make the phono preamp have a static sameness to the high frequency response.

 

I've found this also coming from my VLPS-II, which I actually thought was bright, If indeed the Lounge is 'warming' things up I actually prefer it, as quite a few of my old 12 inchers are on the bright side of things, I think the Lounge did a nice job taming this one

 

I have nothing but accurate and detailed highs from my lounge. I prefer things bright also and all I can say is I have nothing but detail and accurate presentation.

 

I should probably add that I'm not knocking the Lounge; it's a phenomenal sounding phono stage, and would be a bargain at twice the price.

I'm just trying to track down the differences I'm hearing, which is made complicated by the fact that I changed a lot of things around at once. Plus I don't run a stopwatch or anything, but I'm guessing that the Lounge only has about 15 hours or so on it, so it's not fully burned in yet.

I went back this morning and listened again to the before and after needle drops - one with the Musical Fidelity V-LPS, one with the Lounge. The high end with the Lounge is a lot smoother; the high end with the Musical Fidelity seems almost strident and harsh.

But there's a further catch - the Musical Fidelity needle drop was done using just the stock screw-down clamp and no mat on the VPI's aluminum platter; the Lounge needle drop was done using the mat that came with the VPI, plus the VPI periphery ring clamp and the HRX center weight.

Is it possible I've just assembled a much more revealing system and I'm now able to hear differences (mat vs no mat, ring clamp, etc) that I could not hear before?

 

Great explanation, thanks.

I can confirm hearing greater differences among my various lps. And the more I turn it up the better things sound, to a much greater degree than with my previous pre-amp. Both of these points closely reflect my own observations.

I consider the Lounge a huge upgrade and I'm very glad I bought it. The difference in soundstage alone is astounding. It is certainly the highest quality component in my system, and has me wanting to upgrade my tt, or at least the tonearm and cart. Some changes I'm hearing are no doubt a result of having a high-end component (at least by my standards) in the my system for the first time, and that bringing out the best in good recordings, and flaws in the not-so-good ones..

 

Not enough treble for you? Try a Graham Slee Reflex.

 

I'm personally not necessarily looking for more treble. I'm very pleased with my Lounge. It's a huge upgrade over what I had.

I just responded to the OP that I've noticed something similar on certain recordings. I do not have extensive experience with higher quality audio and so am still getting used to differences in what I'm hearing. On many recordings the smoother, less pronounced treble is an improvement and more natural sounding, and probably better reflects what is actually in the grooves. Also, as you may notice the rest of my system - especially my turntable - is not exactly "high end".

Finally, I would point out that the pre-amp you suggested is over 4X the price of the Lounge.

 

I like less treble. I don't understand why so many recordings are hyper-trebled, but I'd bet that the people responsible for producing them have high-frequency hearing problems. Also, audio equipment is often voiced too trebly (the Reflex is an example). I commend any audio manufacturer who offers smooth sounding gear.

 

Doing more deep listening. I ditched the platter mat, and that actually tightened up the sound a bit more.

What's weird/cool is that I've never been able to hear these kinds of differences before I embarked on my massive upgrade campaign...it's a blessing and a curse. Mostly a blessing.

 

Once you're ready to do some more experimenting I highly suggest trying the Signal Cable Silver resolution interconnects with your Lounge. The clarity and detail they brought to the music while still sounding most thoroughly musical was a revelation. They are very reasonably priced cables and may be sent back for a refund if you're not satisfied.

 

To my ears, most audio gear pumps out too much treble.

My LCR arrived today and I'll post again in a few weeks on how it sounds.

 

It's just been a few days but I can't reconcile all the love that this gets with what I'm hearing. Where's the treble?

Maybe there are some manufacturing variances, but I'm hearing exactly what the guy in the video heard. To be clear, what I'm hearing is if you turned your treble knob (if you had one) half way down. Or, to put it another way, it sounds like the tweeters in my speakers are disconnected. Cymbals are gone. What I'm hearing is so at odds with what so many others have written that it's unbelievable.

Don't get me wrong, I hate lots of treble and prefer it to be minimized, but what I'm hearing is very muted treble, over and above the call of duty.

Of course it's just been a few days. Everything else turned out nice and the break in improvement was very noticeable (sound stage, bass), but any further break in is going to have grow a lot of high frequency information. Everything below treble sounds beautiful.

 

Going against the rules, but I changed something.

Replaced my Sony STR-6055 receiver with an Exposure 2010S integrated amp. Vastly different sound; much more detailed and crisp. (Synergy is everything) Let's see how this works out.

 

OK - high frequency-wise the Exposure is a MUCH better match up for the LCR. My trusty 1971 all-discrete Sony doesn't work well at all with it.

Some really great sounds coming out of the speakers. Have to keep reminding myself I'm not listening to my main turntable (Denon DP-47F with an Ortofon Quintet Black cartridge) but my secondary turntable (Technics SL-QD33 p-mount currently with a Grado Gold 1 cartridge with an 8MZ stylus). Now I can understand all the LCR love. Going to re-listen to everything I played over the last three days.