LoVE's Forever Changes 50th anniversary celebration. Music, book...

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by lemonade kid, Sep 22, 2017.

  1. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing Thread Starter

    For those who wanted to hear it from one who was there...Michael responded to the question that was asked here (about the off-key horns finale); so I asked him a few days ago. Here is his response. (And good friend, Michael responded honestly and openly, and with respect. As is to be expected---always a class guy.) He said I could share it with you all:

    Hi Scott,

    Regarding Elektra bringing in the studio people to play the foundation instrumental on the album...

    ...please remember that this album was recorded at a time when Arthur was trying desperately to distance himself from the rest of the band. Why?

    ...because 1) Bryan had taken Stephanie away, 2) the rest of the group had sided with Bryan when Arthur tried to fire him, 3) all of Arthur's buddies were telling him what he wanted to hear... that he WAS Love, and 4) he hated sharing the spotlight anyway.

    And what better way for him to pull off this divestiture than to find a way to have session guys come in to do our parts for us? It would make us appear totally inept and truly expendable. It was kind of like when Janis Joplin [dumped] Big Brother. She was just SO TALENTED that everybody else in the early group just didn't really belong on the same stage with her. That was more or less the template for what Arthur had in mind for Love.

    Remember also, that I always said that whatever problems we had doing our parts when we went in the first time, we would have overcome with a few more takes, no problem. But we only did like 4 or 5 takes before Arthur all too quickly called things to a halt and conferred with the studio heads to bring in the WC [Wrecking Crew]. Remember how many takes the group took to do 7&7 Is? I think I read one time, 54! So limiting their decision to bring in studio people based upon the first few FC takes was unrealistic at best and so obviously contrived.

    Then why did I make it appear as if we didn't have our parts down when I wrote the book [Pegasus Carousel]? Diplomacy. Because if I had laid out all the reasoning behind what really happened, many people who idolize Arthur might have simply thought I was, for whatever reason, just kicking a wonderfully & truly talented guy who was already down (during the release of the first edition, he was in prison and then when the second edition was released, he was dead.) So I had to be careful to avoid alienating what would almost certainly be my readership...fans of the group.

    Bottom line, (regarding the motive for the horns sounding off-key at the end of You Set The Scene)...there was almost no interaction at all between Arthur and the rest of us when we recorded the album. It was all Arthur and Elektra. So who knows what they decided? That's how he set it up (the scene that is.)

    Later my friend,
    Michael

    PS-Please keep in mind that Michael has often told me it is the greatest honor to have had a part in the creation of Forever Changes. That Arthur, in spite of Arthur's personal issues, was the most talented artist, and the most respected artist (personally) that Michael ever had the immense pleasure to work with. That he is forever honored to have been a part of Love, and forever truly grateful that Forever Changes is so cherished by all us fans, and is so widely revered, worldwide. -LK

    PPS-Interestingly, and understandably, Michael's favorite Love LP is the first. The one that he didn't appear on. Likely because, like most artists, listening to oneself can be a rather unsettling and excruciatingly long critique of what he could have done better or differently. He has been teaching himself the guitar parts to all the tracks from that first Love album on, surprisingly, the acoustic guitar. -LK

    :tiphat:
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
  2. The Freedom Man

    The Freedom Man The Freedom Man

    Location:
    Rotterdam
    Thanks for asking Michael, Scott.I do wonder what Johnny thought if it at the time and if he had something to say, him and arthur being good friends I can imagine Arthur would listen to Johnny
     
  3. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing Thread Starter

    No.

    Johnny likely had no say either, as he was "fired" for a few days also when the Wrecking Crew was brought in to embarrass them... for a bit.

    So I'm pretty sure he had no say either concerning any decisions about Forever Changes, and Johnny & Arthur were estranged for many years after. As Johnny sided with Bryan & the band over Arthur wanting to fire Bryan...and the whole band was fired permanently not long after recording Your Mind And We Belong Together . With no courtesy or word from Arthur, one day while waiting for the next gig or recording session, they found out Arthur had a new Love band and was recording Four Sail.

    And they all just had to accept it and walk away. Johnny is filmed in the Love doc saying that he admits feeling rather happy that (compared to the Forever Changes band and their three LPs) the new band and album (Four Sail), was a rather "ham-fisted" failure. A lot of bitterness there for many years over Arthur's rather shabby treatment & firing of the band.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
  4. psychtrailmix

    psychtrailmix Forum Resident

    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    Disagree with Johnny. Four Sail is an incredible record! Maybe it failed commercially back then, but eventually people came around and saw its greatness.
     
  5. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing Thread Starter

    It is remarkable that Johnny and the former Love members expressed a real respect and fondness for Arthur, in spite of a couple members even suing Arthur to recoup the residuals that Arthur failed to pay. They all felt honored to be a part of Forever Changes, and justly so. Time and tides...
     
    auralden likes this.
  6. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing Thread Starter

    Johnny only felt it at the time...his understandable bitterness passed, and he has since expressed respect for the talent and genus of the band and Four Sail. I love it too!

    Johnny and Arthur rekindled their long time friendship. All ended in a good place for them, with no regrets. Johnny often speaks of their amazing youth and times together.
     
    Tuco, auralden and psychtrailmix like this.
  7. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    Those horns are intentional. Herb Alpert double tracked and triple tracked trumpet parts where one trumpet is off key and the other 1st trumpet is in tune. When Herb Alpert started the Tijuana Brass that was a key ingredient to the point that his second trumpet Tonni Kaish did hardly any recording work.
    The wrecking crew filled out Herbs vision on the first four Herb Tjb albums then he created his true TJB band and albums 5-13 were all band members that are on the album covers and toured with occasional work by Julius Weltcher and some wrecking crew alumni. Sorry for rambling, John M.
     
    WilliamWes, Tuco, zphage and 3 others like this.
  8. The Elephant Man

    The Elephant Man Forum Resident

    It’s a helluva album. But you can’t deny that it is ‘ham-fisted’ compared to ‘Forever Changes’!

    If you listen to the CD ‘The Last Wall Of The Castle’ (2000) there are quite a few instrumental passes of ‘7 & 7 Is’ and I believe they are in the upper 80’s when it comes to the number of takes. I would have passed out behind the drum set.
     
    lemonade kid likes this.
  9. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Arthur seems like a, well, let's say unique individual. :laugh:
     
    lemonade kid and George P like this.
  10. psychtrailmix

    psychtrailmix Forum Resident

    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    I absolutely disagree. It's a completely different sounding album, but I like it equally honestly. Jay Donnellan is an incredible guitarists, George Suranovich is a beast on drums..... It's one of the last true classic records from Elektra. I wrote a big blog post on Four Sail, professing my love for the album and more, check it out if you'd like see my perspective on it :) Psych Trail Mix - Blog
     
  11. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    It is a very good album and I certainly wouldn't call it "ham-fisted" but it does seem to be a bit overly-professional compared to the original Love. Now of course one might say that Love MK. II were just better musicians and that may be true but there's a certain feel and atmosphere about the original Love that is missing from the second band. Not quite as spooky, not quite as dread-ful, not nearly as doomed. But it is a good frame for the talents of Arthur, sure 'nuff.

    I prefer False Start though!
     
  12. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing Thread Starter

    Love False Start

    Great posts, guys!
     
    Leaman, psychtrailmix and dkmonroe like this.
  13. Leaman

    Leaman Has a foggy notion

    So does everyone really love this box set? I mean, Forever Changes is one of my favorite albums and all, but there's hardly anything we didn't have before.

    Yes, it's great to have the mono mix on CD. It sounds fantastic. I've heard two different mono LPs before and both had serious crackle issues (apparently that's an issue with a lot of FC first pressings). And it's nice to have the "Your Mind and We Belong Together" video officially available (and looking better than the version on YouTube).

    But the 2015 Botnick remasters of the stereo version, the alternate mix and the bonus tracks have all been available for streaming or purchase for a while. The 24/192 version of the album was available to buy at all the usual HQ-download places. It sounds the same as the MFSL SACD to me, which also plays in fake 5.1 on my setup. It's also nice to have the 2015 Botnick on LP, but for my money the MFSL 45 RPM 2xLP is still the best-sounding vinyl version.

    While I still love the album a whole hell of a lot, I think Elektra milked the last bit of Forever Changes reissue value 10 years ago.
     
    moops, zphage, psychtrailmix and 2 others like this.
  14. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Sorry you wasted your money on something you don't enjoy. I passed on the MFSL LP and SACD, so I'm happy with this box set. The MFSL LP would have cost me nearly as much as I paid for this set. It makes some CD's that I previously bought redundant but I'm not concerned.
     
  15. Leaman

    Leaman Has a foggy notion

    Oh, I do enjoy it. I got a good deal on it, and it was worth it to me for the mono CD, the video, and the reading material that came with it.

    It just seems lacking compared to other multi-CD/LP/DVD sets. Then again, even at full price it's way less than the Sgt. Pepper 50th CD box, which still required you to buy the LP separately, so maybe I shouldn't complain.
     
    fortherecord likes this.
  16. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing Thread Starter

    Yes. We need more LOVE.

    The DVD format is amazing. The equally amazing Botnick vinyl remaster is the cream--as there isn't another vinyl reissue available out their (and the 2 LP 45 rpm is so high priced on amazon it's insane--besides, despite the great audio, I kinda find the two disc 45 thing to be annoyingly short per side--play and flip four times for a full album listen is maddening).

    This one is the definitive for me. And the folio hardbound book presentation gives Forever Changes the kind of reverence it deserves. SO for me this is the long overdue pinnacle, the cream of the crop of reissue releases--even if I do have a several various signed CD reissues (especially the deluxe edition--wonderful). The new Botnick remaster on vinyl so far exceeds the audio sound of the original vinyl which I also have....every time I spin the new vinyl I am in awe and still in LOVE. As a hands on, physical kind of guy, digital downloads are worthless. They are cool for play in the car, but they are really just air...and could just as easily disappear. They aren't "real" to me.

    I wanna hold the package that houses the music I love. The cooler the package the better--if the music within is loved also. That's why I have 800 LPs and counting. I'll even take a CD over digital if it's packaged nicely. Digital is just as elusive as radio air waves--I know one can get great HQ stuff, but my mind just can't get a handle on it as being something solid and worth collecting... like Wall Street stock. Just me. Not knocking anyone's collection in any form...! Get LoVE any way you can!

    So, oh yeah--long story short...we all need more Love. Now more than ever!

    :edthumbs:
     
  17. Brand_New_Friend

    Brand_New_Friend Active Member

    [/QUOTE] It sounds the same as the MFSL SACD to me, which also plays in fake 5.1 on my setup. It's also nice to have the 2015 Botnick on LP, but for my money the MFSL 45 RPM 2xLP is still the best-sounding vinyl version.[/QUOTE]

    Leaman: Did you listen to this "fake 5.1"? Did you enjoy it? Why or why not? I still don't know how to distinguish a "fake 5.1" from a real 5.1...
     
    Leaman likes this.
  18. Leaman

    Leaman Has a foggy notion

    I did listen to it, and it was nice. It's cool to hear an album you know so well sound a little different, and for small sounds to pop up in the different speakers around the room. Honestly, I prefer stereo (or even mono) for listening to music, but it's cool to listen to an album in surround every once in a while.

    I only know it's fake 5.1 because there's no actual 5.1 mix on the disc. I've noticed that some stereo SACDs and stereo BluRays/DVDs that I put in my home theater seem to play in 5.1 surround anyway. I learned from this very thread that it's because my receiver has ProLogic II, which can emulate 5.1 sound. Apparently I have it set to do so!
     
    Brand_New_Friend likes this.
  19. Brand_New_Friend

    Brand_New_Friend Active Member

    Leaman: Thank you very much for your reply.
     
    Leaman likes this.
  20. old school

    old school Senior Member

    I couldn't agree more Scott. I admire the passion you have for this box set.
     
  21. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing Thread Starter

    Ahhh, La Crescenta High....we've talked before about the old days. Cheers to you and thanks for the passion yourself!
     
    old school likes this.
  22. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing Thread Starter

    Some nice reads, including some cool bits from our forum host...sorry if we've seen this before I' sure, but worth repeating:


    There Is Only ONE Stereo Mix Of Forever Changes.

    Many fans rejoiced when Rhino released the Forever Changes 2CD Collectors Edition in 2008 which included an alternate mix of the entire album - in fact, it was not meant to be a proper release but some listeners prefer it over the original. Over the years, many have assumed that Steve Hoffman was responsible for this remix when he only actually remastered it. Here is Hoffman's explanation (from his forum post in 2016) behind the origin of the album's intriguing alternate mix:

    "A record promoter by the name of Joe Saraceno used to come into the office to hawk his stuff. He always wore Bermuda Shorts, sandals, a funky shirt and carried a brown paper grocery bag full of misc. cassettes of stuff he said he "owned," wanting us to buy some of it. We used to laugh at some of the crap he had but at one time he was a mover in this music town and he had the best stories. Once in a while he had a good tape in his bag (like the version of the Frogmen "Beware Below" that we used on our Surf CD, etc.).

    At any rate, we used to humor him, listen to his cassettes in the big office and order in lunch (the part I liked the best).

    One day, he was in my office, playing a cassette of who he said was Ray Charles but it wasn't, so he fished around in his brown bag and pulled out something that he said was "real good modern rock" and to my surprise, it was LOVE's Forever Changes and he had no idea what it was. I heard the weird mix and asked him where he got the cassette. He told me a DJ who had just died (Roger Christian) gave it to him and after I listened for a while I realized it was really, really different from the album version. Joe had never heard it in his life but he said he owned it, naturally. I asked if I could have it and he gave it to me. I had it for years and years and forgot about it until I played it in the office again and when DJ Rick Williams heard it, he dubbed off a copy and took it away with him. Then dubs of that cassette dub started turning up with other DJs who were fans of the album until it was actually issued on CD. I had my doubts about releasing it, for two reasons. One, I HATE remixes of classic albums. Two, the remix is very 1970s, and was done as a rough mix (I am guessing) either from a Quad attempt or another reason, possibly to get some more mileage out of it in the 1970s (because the original mix is pretty weak). The remix has many errors in it because it was done by someone who was not familiar with the album.

    At any rate, I told Elektra I'd give it to them if they let me master it. I still don't think it was a good idea to release it but people seem to like the "behind the scenes" look it gives. The original stereo mix has the balances of instruments correct and sounds like a real record. The remix sounds like a rush job of music that the mixer didn't much like. I had to add a lot of compression to the mix to get it to sound anywhere good because the original sound of the cassette lacks any punch or emotion at all. It's fun to listen to, I guess, once. But it's not the real album."

    As the original multi-tracks of Forever Changes have been lost, this alternate ‘rough’ mix is the closest we will ever get to a proper remix of the album. Btw, this alternate mix will also be included in the upcoming 50th Anniversary Edition out on 6 April 2018 -

    Like and follow Forever Changes

    #loveforeverchanges #foreverchanges #stevehoffman #foreverchanges50thanniversary #rhinorecords
     
    Leaman and Shawn like this.
  23. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing Thread Starter

  24. auralden

    auralden Forum Resident

    Location:
    Singapore
    lemonade kid likes this.
  25. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing Thread Starter

    Very cool. Note the poster, the upcoming show advertises "Buffalo Springfields". Love were introduced at Fillmore West as "The Love". I don't care how you say it, would pay anything to have seen these guys, live, in their heydays!

    Nothing can compare today with seeing these artists, at their height of talents, performing in these small venues, made for the kids who attended. None of the arena, huge venues. Just up close and personal. Where you could follow Arthur and Love after the show, walk down to Ben Frank's for a late supper and fun.


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
    Tuco, DTK, auralden and 2 others like this.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine