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Making Led Zeppelin IV and Houses of the Holy even greater?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by PeteTheChop, Jul 7, 2017.

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  1. PeteTheChop

    PeteTheChop Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    When Physical Graffiti was released in 1975, there were seven older outtakes included to create a double album.

    Jimmy Page's explanation was that Led Zeppelin IV and Houses of the Holy fit together so well, there really was no place for other songs recorded in the same sessions.

    That was a different time, though. Back in the era of vinyl and 8-track tapes (look it up, kids :)), single albums seldom ran longer than 45 minutes or so.

    But those sorts of "time constrictions" are not an issue 40 years later.

    Since I've been listening to a good bit of Zep lately. I'm curious how people who are good at these things (and, unfortunately, I have zero talent to do so) would re-sequence these albums with the outtakes included.

    What would keep these classic LP's flowing naturally as opposed to simply tacking the album's outtakes at the end of the running order?

    I'm interested to see if there might be consensus. Or maybe some folks have already done so for there own playlists.


    Led Zeppelin IV
    Black Dog
    Rock and Roll
    The Battle of Evermore
    Stairway to Heaven
    Misty Mountain Hop
    Four Sticks
    Going to California
    When the Levee Breaks
    *Down By the Seaside
    *Night Flight
    *Boogie with Stu

    Houses of the Holy

    The Song Remains the Same
    The Rain Song
    Over the Hills and Far Away
    The Crunge
    Dancing Days
    D'yer Mak'er
    No Quarter
    The Ocean
    *The Rover
    *Houses of the Holy
    *Black Country Woman

    ... and while we're at it:

    Led Zeppelin III
    Immigrant Song
    Celebration Day
    Since I've Been Loving You
    Out on the Tiles
    Gallows Pole
    That's the Way
    Bron-Y-Aur Stomp
    Hats off to (Roy) Harper
    *Hey, Hey What Can I Do (b-side to Immigrant Song)

    BeatlesBop likes this.
  2. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic Autodidact Debater

    The only thing I can think of is adding Houses of the Holy to Houses of the Holy, I mean come on ;^D
  3. PacificOceanBlue

    PacificOceanBlue Senior Member

    The Southwest
    In general, those albums are untouchable and quite incredible in their existing state. That said, "D'yer Maker" may be the nadir of the Zeppelin catalogue, swapping it out for the title track "Houses of The Holy" would have been an improvement.
  4. Rockinrob

    Rockinrob Forum Resident

    Tampa, FL
    More is not always better

    On a related note, one of the things I'm convinced made the 60's/70's so great for rock music was the roughly 20 minute per side limitation of vinyl.

    This allows records to be easily digestible, even playing them over and over again. It leaves you wanting more! It allows the band to only need to come up with 30-40 minutes of music, which is pretty easy to do every year for the most part.

    When bands started trying to fill up CDs, I think it took some of the excitement out, and also makes it much harder to really focus for the whole thing.
  5. Use_Your_Koala

    Use_Your_Koala Forum Resident

    While I love D'Yer Maker, I think that The Crunge is an absolutely awful song. The album would truly be better without it.
  6. DPM

    DPM Forum Resident

    I'd leve Zeppelin IV alone. It's perfect as is.

    For Houses Of The Holy I'd pull The Crunge and move D'yer Maker into its spot. I'd also pull Dancing Days and replace it with Houses Of The Holy and follow it up with Black Country Woman. No Quarter and The Ocean would remain third and fourth on side two.

    The Rover fits better with Physical Graffiti or even Presence for that matter, so it's stays off.
  7. Dr. Funk

    Dr. Funk Vintage Dust

    Fort Worth TX
    I say, leave em alone. They are just fine the way they are.
  8. SurrealCereal

    SurrealCereal Forum Resident

    I think IV would suffer greatly from inserting those songs. I like "Night Flight," but none of the songs fit that album. Houses of the Holy would be improved if "D'yer Mak'er" and "The Crunge" were swapped for "Houses of the Holy" and "The Rover." Led Zeppelin III would be better if it contained "Hey, Hey What Can I Do," especially if it meant "Hats Off to Harper" would be removed. This is all just my opinion, of course.
    supernaut, johnsiddique and Hot Ptah like this.
  9. dee

    dee Forum Resident

    ft. lauderdale, fl
    I can see swapping Hop for Night Flight, in the same slot.

    The title track in place of The Crunge.
    supernaut and Price.pittsburgh like this.
  10. Dan Steele

    Dan Steele Senior Member

    Chicago suburbs
    I hate the Crunge. I think it brings down an otherwise perfect album. The fact that there were 2 outstanding choices instead from the same recording session, one the name of the album, is crazy to me. I have tried diferent variations but this is how I listen to Houses of the Holy:
    Song Remains the same
    Rain song
    Over the hills
    The Rover (deleting Crunge)
    Dancing Days
    D’yer Maker
    No Quarter
    The Ocean
    Houses of the Holy (added)

    If I could have gone back in time to construct the original album (and subject to LP time limitations) I would delete the Rain Song, and there would be 4 tracks per side totaling about 18:30 min, and I would open side 2 with No Quarter.
  11. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    DC area
    Agree wholeheartedly. But try putting out a 9 song, 40 min CD and see what complaints show up on Amazon...
    supernaut likes this.
  12. Mike Reynolds

    Mike Reynolds Forum Resident

    Regarding the album Houses Of The Holy, I always thought it was just a mess of an album. The studio production always seemed thin and one-dimensional, and the album's track sequence (and content) was too imbalanced for my liking.

    In an effort to clean it up, I would begin by axing "D'yer Mak'er" and putting the song "Houses Of The Holy" in its place, and then for better continuity I would re-sequence the songs as follows:

    Side 1
    Houses Of The Holy
    Dancing Days
    The Song Remains The Same
    No Quarter
    Total Time: 20.20

    Side 2
    The Rain Song
    Over The Hills And Far Away
    The Ocean
    The Crunge
    Total Time: 20.17

    A second alternate version to include "Houses Of The Holy" and "The Rover" would look like this:

    Side 1
    Houses Of The Holy
    Dancing Days
    The Rover
    The Ocean
    The Crunge
    Total Time: 21.14

    Side 2
    Song Remains The Same
    Over The Hills And Far Away
    The Rain Song
    No Quarter
    Total Time: 24.52

    I'm not sure which version I like better, but both are better than the original. Imo.
  13. spencer1

    spencer1 Great Western Forum Resident

    The only way to make them better is to play them LOUDER.
  14. telepicker97

    telepicker97 Got Any Gum?

  15. ODShowtime

    ODShowtime Swirl Life

    Some people are going out of bounds in this thread.
    mbleicher1 likes this.
  16. fallbreaks

    fallbreaks Forum Resident

    I’d suggest

    The Song Remains the Same
    Rain Song
    Over the Hills
    The Ocean

    Dancing Days
    The Rover
    No Quarter
    Houses of the Holy

    D’yer Mak’er b/w The Crunge
    dylan1974 likes this.
  17. kaztor

    kaztor Music is the Best

    Would’ve been too similar to Dancing Days imo.

    I like both albums perfectly as they are.
  18. limoges

    limoges Forum Resident

    San Antonio, TX
    I would replace “Out on the Tiles” from III with “Hey, Hey, What Can I Do?” IMHO it’s a better song, a perfect side ender, and it fits the album’s vibe.
  19. BDC

    BDC Forum Resident

    Just made Physical Graffiti less great........
    Instant Dharma and Murph like this.
  20. Instant Dharma

    Instant Dharma Get Ry Cooder to sing my eulogy

    Leave the Crunge alone. Get rid of Dyer Maker.

    Put rhe Rover rhere. In fact don’t. Physical Graffiti side 1 is perfect.
  21. Mark J

    Mark J Forum Resident

    Boca Raton, FL USA
    Don't mess with Physical Graffiti, the best double LP in rock. These songs belong where the are. Page knew what he was doing.
  22. :laughup:
  23. stevemoss

    stevemoss Forum Resident

  24. BryanA-HTX

    BryanA-HTX Crazy Doctor

    Houston, TX
    This. And I grew up in the CD era! In my teens when I started getting into 60s 70s and early '80s rock albums that were 37-42-ish mins I found them a lot more cohesive and digestible than the latest 65-minute CD. Even nowadays I find anything over 45 mins to be a little daunting to listen to lol
    stodgers and Paulo Alm like this.
  25. misteranderson

    misteranderson Forum Resident

    englewood, nj
    No, he didn't. A bunch of greybeards on an internet forum who have way too much time on their hands, and don't really like anything, know better. Seems like every decent album ever released needs to be played with by the know-it-alls here, and just isn't good enough. And it might as well be an SHF rule: ALL DOUBLE ALBUMS SHALL BE CUT DOWN TO A SINGLE ALBUM.

    LZ IV and Houses sold what, something like 30 million or more altogether and made lots of people happy, but none of that matters.

    Naturally, when Page revisits his own work, and edits it or rethinks it in any way, you guys whine like he's mugging you at gunpoint. Look, if you really have to rip tracks off a 40 year old album and put them in a different order to satisfy yourself, that's cool, but you're not improving anything or making it greater. That ship has sailed, a very long time ago.
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