Marantz Questions

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by mrkrinkle, Nov 25, 2022.

  1. mrkrinkle

    mrkrinkle so long and thanks for all the fish Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Marantz people, I have two questions for you. Has anyone here found a modern amp that sounds like the Marantz 2230? Has anyone here compared the Model 40N to the PM8006?
     
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  2. Spokeless

    Spokeless Roaming Member

    I’ll pop you back to pg.1, though I can’t comment directly on your queries.

    I too am curious about the 40N, as a possible step if/when my mainstay Sony integrated bites the dust.

    You may find that asking here, and waking up the thread, is helpful:
    New Marantz 40n streaming integrated
     
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  3. mrkrinkle

    mrkrinkle so long and thanks for all the fish Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Thank you, sir. I know there are a bunch of us Marantz folk on here, so hopefully the others will post some insights after they recover from Thanksgiving food coma.
     
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  4. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Seattle area
    Marantz was a completely different company in the 70s and 80s than it was in the first couple decades of this century.

    IMO the post 2000 Marantz gear (especially their higher end gear) is much better than the older stuff. But I'm sure that there are some specific exceptions to this rule of thumb.
     
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  5. HIRES_FAN

    HIRES_FAN Forum Resident

    Depending on what your budget permits, go with the PM8006 or 40N, (which are both Class AB and can try to do justice to the vintage Marantz beefy amps).

    Stay away from the model 30, which is the class D hypex crap.
     
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  6. Ntotrar

    Ntotrar Forum Resident

    Location:
    Tri-Cities TN
    I had the 30 and rather quickly I tired of it, sort of "hollow" sounding for no better word. I also experienced a reliability issue.
     
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  7. mrkrinkle

    mrkrinkle so long and thanks for all the fish Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Thanks. I have the 8006 and had the Ruby for a while. I'm ok with class D. Mostly curious how the 40n compares to the 8006 because I have a suspicion the 40n is basically the 8006 with a DAC and new faceplate thrown in.
     
  8. mrkrinkle

    mrkrinkle so long and thanks for all the fish Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    That was my impression from video samples. I love mid-range, so that's a bit of a deal breaker for me, plus I get my V curve fix from the A-S1200. Thanks for the sanity check.
     
  9. mrkrinkle

    mrkrinkle so long and thanks for all the fish Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Ya, objectively I think the new stuff is better, too. I really like the warmth of the 2230, though. It's never fatiguing, etc. Haven't found a modern amp that hits the same spot for me.
     
  10. Ntotrar

    Ntotrar Forum Resident

    Location:
    Tri-Cities TN
    I think I read somewhere they have the same amplifier section. Please don't quote me on this.
     
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  11. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    The original tube gear, mainly Saul Marantz, pre-Superscope, but also Sid Smith (I guess throw in Dick Sequerra for the 10b tuner) but all the tube gear is still very desirable. It's been years since I heard a 7 tube preamp or any of the amps. I did hear a pair of model 1 (mono) consolette preamps in a studio set up a while ago --stunning.
    I'm not calling this out to bust your chops- (you noted there are potential exceptions) but wonder how many in the hobby now are even aware of the original components- they have been "grail" pieces for decades. I think our host has some (not sure if he's running them). I remember the 7 preamp holding its own against the ARC SP 3-a-1 back when that was considered king (now also a sought-after piece). Prices not for the faint of heart, but given the cost of "uber-fi" these days, probably worth it, especially if unmolested and maintained.
     
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  12. SocProf

    SocProf Forum Resident

    Location:
    Denver, CO
    I have the Model 30 and like it. It's based on the PM Ruby, which is based on the PM-10. This isn't your grandparents' Class D. :)

    FWIW, Stereophile Magazine gave the Model 30 an A rating and gave the Model 40n a B rating.
     
  13. mrkrinkle

    mrkrinkle so long and thanks for all the fish Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    How would you describe the sound quality?
     
  14. SocProf

    SocProf Forum Resident

    Location:
    Denver, CO
    The adjective that immediately comes to mind is: transparent. Lots of natural detail (i.e. not overhyped treble) and a deep, wide soundstage. It mates well with my Quad Z2 standmount speakers (which have ribbon tweeters) and my SVS sub (connected to the preamp out). My source is the matching SACD 30n.
     
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  15. dtyndall

    dtyndall Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Orlando, Florida
    I have a 40N and love it, no real complaints. Sounds good to me. The headphone amp powers my Sennheiser 660S headphones well, needing about volume 40 out of 100 (I assume it goes to 100? Maybe not lol) The phono preamp also sounds good with a turntable. I used a Schiit Mani 1 and 2 prior to having the 40N, and it’s at least comparable to both.

    If I’m nitpicking, it’s hard to read the remote because the buttons are small and aren’t backlit. The porthole is also small and hard to read but looks pretty elegant.
     
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  16. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Seattle area
    You and I are in complete agreement. The original tube gear was legendary. The company's quality took a serious nose-dive when Superscope purchased it. I should have picked my words more carefully as I had really meant to say that the majority of the SS gear that the company made up until the early 2000s was (with a few notable exceptions) distinctly less than fantastic.
     
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  17. Oatp1b1

    Oatp1b1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    I used to have the PM15S1 and it was tilted to the warmer side. They can be had for ~€500 on the used market now a days which is a great price imho.
     
  18. mrkrinkle

    mrkrinkle so long and thanks for all the fish Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Nice. Have you compared it to the 8006 or 2230, by any chance?
     
  19. Oatp1b1

    Oatp1b1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    Nope, sorry. My guess would be that it's semi based on the 8006 since it's the next model in line after it.
     
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  20. DancingSea

    DancingSea Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maui, Hawaii
    FWIW, Mark Levinson - the legendary designer, not the company - has for many years thought of class A and A/B as outdated technology from the 60’s and moved to class D.

    At least his version of class D. All of his current Daniel Hertz amps are class D.

    Ken Ishiwata had his preference for class D and used it in the reference lines he designed for the last segment of his career.

    That’s 2 audio legends who willingly converted to class D for sonic reasons. And Hypex is designed by the Mola Mola guy, not exactly low end fare.

    Needless to say, while personal preferences rightfully may vary, class D has a legit place in the conversation.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2022
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  21. HIRES_FAN

    HIRES_FAN Forum Resident

    You won't change my mind nor will i change yours. Get your Class D miracle and rejoice. I will throw Class D in the trash and continue to enjoy my Class A. Gnite...


    Bob Carver
    "I built many of them right here in my own laboratory with the thought they could and would fulfill that final promise.... I was never able to build a Class D amplifier that sounded as good as a linear one."

    John Curl (Parasound, CTC, Vendetta Research, Constellation)
    "Some version of hybrid Class A/D looks like the future in optimum audio design."

    Cyrill Hammer (Soulution Audio)
    "If you want to have your product performing at the cutting edge it is not possible with today's known switching technologies. In order to come close to the performance of the best linear design we would need high-current semiconductors that provide switching frequencies of several MHz or even GHz."

    Lew Johnson (Conrad Johnson)
    "I tend to think that Class D circuit design is an approach best relegated to producing low-cost, physically manageable multichannel amplifiers where one might accept some compromise in sound quality for the sake of squeezing five, six, or seven 100 watt channels into one moderate-sized package for a budget home-theater installation."

    Vladimir Shushurin (Lamm Industries)
    "No, it is not. And I would like to respond to the second part of this question with an allegory. Any field of human activity defines a number of requirements which, when properly implemented, guarantee a positive outcome. For example, the basic requirement in the army and sports is an able-bodied individual. So, it would be quite natural to concentrate on searching for such an individual (especially as we know where to find him). However, out of the blue we decide to choose a feeble-bodied person who, on top of that, is encumbered by various diseases. Having made this decision (which is a priori improper) we start justifying it to ourselves and others by citing the great state of our medicine, which is capable of curing many ailments."

    Fumio Ohashi (BAlabo)
    "No. Class D can't really be considered for super-high-end performance in its present stage of development, although it can be fine for mid-market products."

    Nelson Pass (Pass Labs)
    "Does a $10 bottle of wine compete with a $100 bottle? Of course it does, and it often wins based on price. Right at the moment Class D designers seem to be still focusing on the objectively measured performance of their amplifiers. I expect that at some point the economics of the marketplace will encourage them to pay more attention to the subjective qualities, and then they will probably play a greater role in the high end."

    Jürgen Reis (MBL)
    "I have worked a lot lately with Class D. Ninety-nine percent of Class D circuits are not competitive with linear circuits. Most Class D sounds sterile. It's tricky to figure out what to do to compensate for that."

    Thorsten Loesch (iFi - AMR)
    "I have yet to hear a pure class D Amp I’d rate above "below average for solid state" (which is not very high performance). In a little update of my classic 'Valve Analogue Stages for DACs' I wrote: "Perhaps more crucially, so called Class D Amplifiers, which have in recent times sprouted up like mushrooms after a warm rain, continue to use the straight two or three level modulation scheme described above. And thus they still require the use of heavy handed noise shaping to attain anything like acceptable 16 Bit Audio performance.The clock frequencies for these amplifiers are usually at 300 KHz to 1MHz in the best cases. That is 3,000 to 10,000 times lower than what is required to attain 16 Bit / 44.1 KHz performance without noise shaping and other forms of signal manipulation! And again, one is baffled and perplexed by the rave reviews many Class D amplifiers receive, as baffled as one was about the late 90s reviews of timeslicing DACs. The best of breed I have auditioned were certainly not bad; however in direct comparison to the best available valve and solid state amplifiers they do not produce a very good sound. Well, at least they offer novelty and the reviewers something to write about other than another (however good sounding) 8 Watt valve amp. Incidentally, the best sounding Class D amps tend to be really low power single chip devices (putting out little more than the 8 watt valve amps), presumably because they are faster AND because they always work near what one might call a full scale, if they would be DACs. On second thought, they of COURSE are DA Converters and where a Class D amplifier accepts analogue input directly it is an A2D converter followed by a power D2A converter! What an insight!?"

    Mark Levinson
    "Interleaving of multiple Class D Amplifiers is potentially a step in the right direction, but does not go far enough.Personally I think that the best option would be something that combines a Class D Amplifier for the heavy lifting with something Class A for fine detail. Probably implemented in the style I did for AMR’s AM-77 "Jikoda" Style. In this case both of the circuits involved can operate fully open loop. In many ways the problems in Class D Amplifiers are analogous (but not identical to) those in Class B Amplifiers (but without an option to implement Class AB or Class A) so similar solutions apply. All Class D amplifiers are essentially delta-sigma DAC’s. If the input is not digital PWM signals (aka "DSD") but analogue audio then it is also a Delta Sigma Analogue to digital converter...Now DSD (aka SACD) which to my ears fails to come close, never mind equal true PCM CD Replay in most aspects of sound quality, operates at 2.8MHz switching, or around 10 times as fast as common Class D Amplifiers...Why anyone would want to listen through an A2D followed by an D2A Converter that are around 10 times worse than single speed DSD is beyond me. But with enough hype and snazzy naming it cannot help but sell high and wide."

    Jeff Rowland
    "I consider Class D to be highly competitive in the present, and to offer an evolutionary pathway of audio design that may produce even more astonishing results in the future."
     
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  22. DancingSea

    DancingSea Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maui, Hawaii
    I don’t personally have an opinion one way or the other. I’m in no position to listen to a meaningful number of the best amps in the world and issue a class decree.

    My only point is that there are differing opinions, even amongst the experts. As a point of reference, it’s usually a weak position declare a class of gear as being categorically terrible. There are many iterations of Class D, and yet more differing personal tastes, and the technology continues to evolve. Declaring all class D as being “crap”, is a bit like declaring all pasta is horrible. You might hate all pasta, but that doesn’t mean someone else might love it.

    And in the audio game of ours, everyone is a winner because there are no wrong answers when it comes to what someone “likes”.
     
  23. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Have you compared the Marantz 40N to the 30N? Have you heard either amp? What class D amps have you heard to say that they are garbage?
    None of the quotes above show the date that each specific opinion was made. The quotes could be from years ago well before Class D amp technology has evolved and improved.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2022
  24. GoldprintAudio

    GoldprintAudio Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lexington, NC
    I've been really impressed with the 40n. It's probably the closest to "old school" Marantz sound that I've heard from them lately.

    Here's a quick description of the differences b/t the 8006 and the 40n from Hi-Fi News..... (they do sound different in my opinion):


    "the Model 40n sees its Class A/B output stage derived from that used in the PM8006 [HFN Sep '18]. The '40n is a considerably more evolved design, however, for while the PM8006 and '40n are both rated at 70W/8ohm and deliver a very similar 2x95W/8ohm and 2x155W/4ohm, the newcomer – with its paralleled output devices and beefier PSU – steps up with 383W/2ohm and 337W/1ohm under dynamic conditions [Graph 1]. The PM8006 was capped at just 260W/2ohm and 78W/1ohm. Overall gain, too, is similar at +42dB but the '40n enjoys a significantly wider 93.4dB A-wtd S/N ratio (re. 0dBW, vs. 85.6dB for the PM8006) just as distortion is uniformly lower at 0.0004-0.003% (20Hz-20kHz, 10W). The Model 40n's output impedance is fractionally higher at 0.05-0.06ohm (20Hz-20kHz) but its response is just that bit more extended, out to –0.1dB/20kHz and –0.9dB/100kHz."
     
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  25. HIRES_FAN

    HIRES_FAN Forum Resident

    Sure did....I had a PM8006, bought the model 30, compared 30 vs 8006, sent 30 right back (never heard the 40).

    Class D has only been evolving for 30 years now, huh? I suppose my lifespan could end before it fully evolved. Here’s a list of other Class D I've tried (that i can remember right now). I have been trying a lotta Class D over the years to limit my air conditioners' pestilence during the summer months.

    PS Audio

    J Rowland

    Benchmark

    ATI

    Peachtree

    Yamaha (Alas, even my beloved geniuses at Yamaha failed when they tried it)

    Pioneer (Alas, even my beloved geniuses at Pioneer failed when they tried it)

    Starke

    Monolith

    NAD

    Hegel

    Lyngdorf

    DISCLAIMER: I am a very picky audiophile with very high standards for sound reproduction. I am terribly sorry if that continues to hurt the feelings of Class D activists. As long as you are happy with it, that’s all that matters.
     
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