Marillion - Post-Fish

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Putnam39, Aug 5, 2017.

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  1. The_Windmill

    The_Windmill Forum Resident

    Location:
    Italy
    My preconceived notion ended up to be that Brave is what I believe Marillion to be :D It never got any better than that, before or after.

    By the band's own admission, it doesn't even fit the concept.
    It's weaker compared to everything else, yet a necessary step in pacing to prepare the title track.
    I forced myself to find it a place in the concept but I'm afraid I've forgotten it now...
    Anyway, the final "splash" is somewhat redeeming of the track to me, connecting it to the rest, because (even though I read later it's not what the band intended) it makes me visualize the impact of the girl with the river's water, and during the whole title-track I see her floating on the waters like Millais' Ophelia.
    Even if it's not an orthodox interpretation, it made my experience of the album better and most "felt", and I'll keep it.
     
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  2. Mirror Image

    Mirror Image 200 Years Of Anton Bruckner

    Location:
    United States
    I agree that Brave is Marillion’s masterpiece. Even though I look at Paper Lies as irrelevant to the ongoing musical narrative, I feel it offers a counterbalance of sorts. For me, it’s just not a good piece and I always skip it. As for final splash in Paper Lies, it’s important to remember that in the title track, she hasn’t jumped yet. Only in The Great Escape does she actually do it or, at least, according to the initial plot of the story. Of course, she doesn’t as Made Again reveals. I always thought that Made Again was an artistic compromise with EMI as they didn’t like the idea that this woman plummeted to her death and this ends the story on this horrific note. In my mind, she did commit suicide, but, to a lot of the record buying public, she didn’t thanks to Made Again, which isn’t a bad piece, IMHO, but the story is so ominous and foreboding that at least it ends positively for the listener. Of course, this woman in the broadcast that Hogarth heard that inspired this story didn’t jump either and received help before it could happen.
     
  3. The_Windmill

    The_Windmill Forum Resident

    Location:
    Italy
    That I knew later.
    Without anything backing it up, I interpreted everything after the splash was either a narrator's commentary (Brave) or her own mumblings facing death. Falling from the moon could refer to the feeling of letting go, not necessarily to the actual jump.
    And I still like my version of the story better :D

    In that context Made again was always a little puzzle to me.
    It made so much sense to me that she jumped, and then this "you" came out... ***** is he???
    The most I could think of was she being rescued before drowning, and talking about either her savior who made her see life differently or somebody she met afterwards.
    It looked like a strange way of ending such a dramatic album, almost like "ending credits".
     
  4. Mirror Image

    Mirror Image 200 Years Of Anton Bruckner

    Location:
    United States
    As I’ve mentioned before (perhaps not on this thread), I do my best not to look too deeply into the lyrical aspect of Brave since it’s such a ****ing downer, but the music is extraordinary and those people that don’t understand or enjoy this album, I pity them as the band spent three years writing/recording/mixing it. This was quite an ambitious undertaking for them and I think it rewarded those listeners who were willing to make the effort to understand it. As Mark Kelly pointed out in the older Just for the Record documentary, this isn’t an album of little ditties.
     
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  5. Dominic jefferson

    Dominic jefferson Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bury St Edmunds
    Marillion with Fish were the soundtrack to my youth and I pledged my allegiance and followed him when they split.
    And that is the way it stayed for 25 years and more until I heard the FEAR album and saw them at the Albert Hall. Pure brilliance.
    I am now joyously playing catch up with the back catalogue.
     
  6. Mirror Image

    Mirror Image 200 Years Of Anton Bruckner

    Location:
    United States
    Great to read this and I love the fact that you’re not one of those fans that are so bitter and jaded that the band didn’t carry on with Fish. As I’ve said many times before, they would have run out-of-steam had Fish stayed with them. Also, tensions were so high during Clutching at Straws and now it’s possible to look back and see that ‘the cracks were beginning to show’. They simply couldn’t have gone any further with Fish. Even to Fish’s own admission, when the band did reconvene after the Clutching tour to work on new material that the magic that they had was gone. I always shake my head at these diehard Fish-Marillion fanatics, because if they truly loved the band, then they would have accepted Hogarth was never going to be a Fish clone and accept the ‘new’ band on its’ own terms.
     
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  7. Aggie87

    Aggie87 Gig 'Em!

    Location:
    Carefree, AZ
    Isn't it a little condescending to "pity" people who don't care for an album you happen to love? To imply that they haven't spent enough time or effort with it, and their ignorance is why they don't like it?

    Because I can assure you none of the above is why I don't rate it as the zenith of h-era Marillion as you do.

    And I agree with Mark Kelly, it's no album of "little ditties". That doesn't in itself make it a great album.
     
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  8. Mirror Image

    Mirror Image 200 Years Of Anton Bruckner

    Location:
    United States
    Okay, you don’t like the album, I’m completely fine with that. I’m not going to answer your questions because I want to avoid an unnecessary argument. Let’s agree to disagree.
     
  9. ytserush

    ytserush Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northeast US
    I think Hogarth has gotten better with age. Prior to the last couple which I think Hogarth hit his sweet spot (or my sweet spot) my favorite vocal performance is probably This Strange Engine. Love the natural timbre on that one.
     
  10. ytserush

    ytserush Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northeast US

    The magic was still there based on those demos. That's why they're a depressing listen for me. If I hadn't heard them I'd have felt a bit better about the split...especially after hearing what A Vigil In A Wilenerness of Mirrors and Seasons End had become. Two pretty amazing albums without the context.
     
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  11. Mirror Image

    Mirror Image 200 Years Of Anton Bruckner

    Location:
    United States
    But the important thing to remember is that Fish was no longer feeling it. According to him, regardless of what any of us think, there was no way to move forward. Personally, I’m glad they went their separate ways. Fish is a remarkable lyricist, a competent vocalist especially on Misplaced and Clutching, but a poor songwriter. He needed Marillion to help flesh out his wordy labyrinths and otherworldly imagery. Marillion thrived without him and went down musical avenues that Fish never would have like marillion.com or Anoraknophobia for example. Rothery, Kelly, Trewavas, and Mosley knew that they had to move beyond what they achieved with Fish and, IMHO, they have done just that.
     
  12. riskylogic

    riskylogic Forum Resident

    I only discovered Marillion in last few years,, but here's my two cents:

    Fish was an amazing vocalist, and therefore you don't quite appreciate the band as much. Love all four Fish era albums. Brave is the only Hogarth album that is on the same plane. But then, I don't have them all. Radiation and FEAR are quite alright, but I haven't gotten into Seasons End or Marbles.
     
    Mirror Image likes this.
  13. Those, plus Afraid of Sunlight and Marillion.com are perhaps the best Hogarth-era albums. And aside from MC, I think they are their BEST albums.
     
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  14. ytserush

    ytserush Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northeast US
    Fish a "poor songwriter?" I'll just leave that where it is thanks.


    The way forward was taking a break away from the record company pressure, their manager and the rest of the machine. That's where the walls closed in.

    If you read the notes from the '98 remaster (think it was '98.) Both Kelly and Fish who seemed to have clashed personally most at the time during that period admit they had something in those demos, but both the label and management wanted the band to keep the band working so they could make money off of them. I still think the evidence is there that these demos were a pretty good start at would have been better than what they both came up with on their own (which was great albums in both cases.)

    As I said before, my argument is not that they should have never split (or that Fish is better than Hogarth or the reverse) it's that the following album could have been the best one to that point.
     
  15. Diamond Dog

    Diamond Dog Cautionary Example

    He's a better singer than he gets credit for. In that sense, he's perfect for Marillion, a band where all the players are better both individually and more importantly, collectively than they get credit for.

    D.D.
     
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  16. Mirror Image

    Mirror Image 200 Years Of Anton Bruckner

    Location:
    United States
    Yep, it’s common knowledge that Rothery, Kelly, Trewavas, and Mosley were the songwriters in the band and Fish wrote the lyrics and came up with the concept of the albums. The rest of the band freely admitted that Fish’s songwriting ideas didn’t get through as they settled on the band writes the music and Fish writes the lyrics. I’ve heard one or two of Fish’s solo albums and actually gave them away because they were so terrible, so, yeah, I personally don’t think his musical ideas are that interesting. It is true the money-making machine broke the band up and everyone was feeling the pressure, but they couldn’t help the environment they now found themselves in and it was especially taking a toll on Fish. So I go back to this, it was Fish who was unhappy and, thus, this general dreadfulness permeates the entire band environment. I agree with Fish that Clutching is the best thing he’s recorded with them. Who knows what would have happened had the band been given some time apart and room to breath, but that wasn’t in the cards and, in hindsight, IMHO, it was the best decision for Fish to leave, because if he didn’t we wouldn’t have all of these great Hogarth albums like Brave (an album I know you dislike), Afraid of Sunlight, Marbles, etc., so I’m more than thrilled with the direction they went in.
     
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  17. Mirror Image

    Mirror Image 200 Years Of Anton Bruckner

    Location:
    United States
    Awesome! Another Brave fan! :) You’re now my best friend. ;) But, in all seriousness, I agree that Brave matches the intensity and originality of what Marillion achieved with Fish. Radiation is one of my least favorite Marillion albums. I put it as low as Script For A Jester’s Tear, which has never appealed to me as it sounds like rehashed Genesis and there’s not enough of their musical DNA in the music. FEAR is okay, but upon revisitation of the album, it failed to engage me fully like their best music does. Marbles is a remarkable album, but I think Hogarth’s vocal performance in The Invisible Man, for example, has some issues --- especially where he’s straining quite a bit when he sings the words “Invisible Man”, but let me say this: Ocean Cloud and Neverland are two of the best pieces they’ve ever written. Incredible moments on that album. Seasons End has some fine moments like Easter (that Rothery solo is gorgeous), the title track, and Berlin are standouts for me from that album. You definitely need to get Afraid of Sunlight, which is my second favorite Hogarth album after Brave. I believe Hogarth’s best vocal work is on Afraid of Sunlight, especially Out Of This World, which may very well get my vote as my favorite Marillion piece.
     
  18. dixiedixie69

    dixiedixie69 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Derry, Ireland
    Kelly was still unable to support Fish's lyrical approach on CAS as recently as the doc on the deluxe box set.
     
  19. OptimisticGoat

    OptimisticGoat Everybody's escapegoat....

    I am precisely the opposite. Spare me the insincere emotive claptrap and give me the genuine article and some punch. If I want a movie or a play - I know where to go.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  20. Chemically altered

    Chemically altered Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ukraine in Spirit
    I got into Marillion, only after Fish left with Brave which is one of my all time favorite albums from any genre.
     
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  21. OptimisticGoat

    OptimisticGoat Everybody's escapegoat....

    I wish I could do that but every third track or album they completely lose me. I’m sure there is a great band in there - I just can’t access them regularly enough.
     
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  22. Thoughtships

    Thoughtships Forum Resident

    Location:
    Devon, UK
    H may be many things, but "insincere" certainly isn't one of them.
     
  23. The_Windmill

    The_Windmill Forum Resident

    Location:
    Italy
    I think he's referring to the special chemistry that comes out of making music together.
    It's a personal thing. Musical ideas can be good but you wish you were outside of that room.

    I don't know the legal technicalities of the whole thing but as I understand it at the time, in the place they were, they were just strangled by the company's demands and couldn't really pull off. The breakup might have been the only way to "legally" get some freedom back.

    I don't get the criticism, actually.
    There's nothing in his singing that I've ever found questionable.

    Maybe he abused a little of his "screamed" technique.
    Possibly too demanding for him in later years, therefore the change in style. I don't remember which album it was, but that's one distinctive thing I noticed: "Hey, he's not screaming anymore".
     
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  24. Diamond Dog

    Diamond Dog Cautionary Example

    A lot of it seems to be based in the fact that he's not Fish.

    D.D.
     
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  25. Mirror Image

    Mirror Image 200 Years Of Anton Bruckner

    Location:
    United States
    Hogarth isn’t being insincere and his emoting is because he feels strongly about the message of the piece of music. Genuine article? Please...Hogarth is as genuine as they come and displays a great deal of humility.

    Watch the ending of this video where the interviewer, David Stopps, gives Hogarth a compliment and the reaction from Hogarth was one of gratitude:



    There’s nothing disingenuous about Hogarth. I truly believe he’s grateful for all the people that have supported him in Marillion through the years.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
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