Martin Scorsese Compares Marvel Superhero Films to "Theme Park Rides"

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Vidiot, Oct 5, 2019.

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  1. The Hermit

    The Hermit Wavin' that magick glowstick since 1976

    Dear God... is this thread still going???

    What's wrong with you people? Go home... it's closing time, the bar is closed!!!

    Oh, and I'm with #TeamMarty on this one; I personally like quite a few CBM's, but I completely sympathise with and understand his points of contention even if if I think he used slightly too broad a brush in making them... there's room for both a filet mignon and a big mac (not to mention everything and anything in-between) in the world of cinema, it's not an either-or situation, but in this day and age, some folks try to make it one... Marty just gave an honest and personal opinion; the fact the world of geekdom is up in arms over it just proves how ridiculously entitled that group has become for the most part.

    'Nuff said.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  2. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR! Thread Starter

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    And now Marvel/Disney exec Kevin Feige comments again on the Scorsese criticism of Marvel films, this time in more detail. Here's what he says in part:

    "I think that's not true. I think it's unfortunate," Feige says when asked about the notion that superhero movies are a negative for cinema. "I think myself and everyone who works on these movies loves cinema, loves movies, loves going to the movies, loves to watch a communal experience in a movie theater full of people."

    Feige has long maintained that Marvel Studios seeks to make different types of films, and over the years has touted 2015's Ant-Man as a heist film and 2014's Captain America: The Winter Soldier as a political thriller. In response to Scorsese, Feige brings up more recent examples of the risks the studio has taken, noting that Marvel hasn't made an Iron Man film since 2013 and instead pitted Robert Downey Jr.'s Tony Stark against Chris Evans' Captain America in 2016's Captain America: Civil War.

    "We did Civil War. We had our two most popular characters get into a very serious theological and physical altercation," Feige says. "We killed half of our characters at the end of a movie [Avengers: Infinity War]. I think it's fun for us to take our success and use it to take risks and go in different places."

    "Everybody has a different definition of cinema. Everybody has a different definition of art. Everybody has a different definition of risk," says Feige. "Some people don't think it's cinema. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. Everyone is entitled to repeat that opinion. Everyone is entitled to write op-eds about that opinion, and I look forward to what will happen next. But in the meantime, we're going to keep making movies."


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    Marvel's Kevin Feige Breaks Silence on Scorsese Attack: "It's Unfortunate" (Exclusive)
     
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  3. The Hermit

    The Hermit Wavin' that magick glowstick since 1976

    [QUOTE="Vidiot, post: 22523181, member: 13586""We did Civil War. We had our two most popular characters get into a very serious theological and physical altercation," Feige says.[/QUOTE]

    Maybe I missed the conversation between Tony and Cap regarding the Virgin Birth and Transubstantiation in Civil War... either that or someone needs to point out the difference to ol' Kev between philosophical and theological... the former was very much in that film, the latter was not.

    But whatever... life goes on, the fight for love and glory, etc...
     
  4. Joker to the thief

    Joker to the thief Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, UK
    Wow, I remember when two characters having conflict was considered the baseline for drama - not a risk (plus, come-on, do Marvel really not know from their decades in comic books that their fan base loves to see two of their heroes fighting against each other to satisfy those 'who would win in a fight between...' debates)

    Killing off half your main characters would be a huge risk if they stayed dead. Killing them off at the cliffhanger to a two parter then undoing it in the second-half (Iron Man aside) is a plot-point, and just a hook to get the audience to come back to see how you get yourself out of the dramatic corner you've painted yourself into (same as comic books have been doing ever since the 'death of superman' way back when...)
     
  5. Eleanora's Alchemy

    Eleanora's Alchemy Forum Cryptid

    Location:
    Oceania
    Teens/young adults need to have better taste in movies.
     
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  6. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR! Thread Starter

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Eh... there are a few characters who are really most sincerely dead in the Marvel saga. Including at least one with a massive franchise of their own. And a couple of others that are profoundly changed. Is it a risk? Maybe a matter of opinion, but it was certainly a gamble and a surprise from my point of view. Did you actually read what Feige said?
     
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  7. Joker to the thief

    Joker to the thief Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, UK
    I read what you posted, and don't think anything he mentioned would be considered a risk in any other type of movie, and I see the franchise as a whole as particularly risk adverse (not much of a surprise given the fiscals behind them and considering how they're made - executive 'story' teams with huge veto powers, action sequences that are planned before script writers are brought on board and have to be worked around, a severely risk adverse parent company, and locked-in and inflexible filming dates for actors). I don't hate Marvel movies (I've seen all of them except Captain Marvel because I was in hospital when it was on cinema release - I have a monthly cinema pass and wouldn't pay for these movies outside of that), and think for the most part they're solidly made action films (a genre that's much harder to pull off than most realise), but I don't think they're works of art either (they're on par for me with James Bond movies) and I particularly didn't like Endgame precisely because I didn't think it took anywhere enough risks (compare any Marvel movie to the risks taken in Fox's Logan or Legion, for example - but again that's just down to individual taste). If I were to have made predictions going into Endgame it was exactly the characters that I thought would be killed off that were, and the 'changes' they did make to the characters were done in a way that allows them to ignore them or quickly reverse if they chose (plus the multi-verse etc. gave them huge 'get out of jail free' cards). It's all what I'd consider the paradigm of 'safe' movie making, but that's to be expected once any franchise becomes so monetisable --
     
  8. PhilBorder

    PhilBorder Senior Member

    Location:
    Sheboygan, WI
    I like the guy with the hat right by Alice's nose. Such a convincing portrayal of studying the menu, somehow conveying moderate indecision without resorting to method acting tricks. That is acting
     
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  9. bopdd

    bopdd Senior Member

    Location:
    Portland, OR
    I'm pretty sure that a certain actor bidding adieu to the MCU had a lot to do with the fate of his character, which makes the risk (or gamble) seem a little more calculated (though I could be wrong). I'm surprised you were surprised.
     
  10. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    Neither am I. I am simply pointing out that Scorsese had no problem casting himself in that movie saying those things. If you can't understand that in the spirit intended, so be it.

    The entire thrust of the thread is that Scorsese the auteur has rightly proclaimed MCU to be farcical film. This invites criticism of Scorsese, not Avengers, and despite considering him possibly the greatest American director, I think he can be criticized justifiably.

    You know I didn't call Scorsese a racist in real life so you're pretending you misinterpret this for some bizarre reason. The issue is whether he's too comfortable with such things as gratuitous violence, racism, mysogyny, which may influence people in real life more than Avengers.

    The fact that he's willing to cast himself delivering the soliloquy in TD is good evidence of this. And need I remind everyone of Hinkley being heavily influenced by TD?
     
  11. bopdd

    bopdd Senior Member

    Location:
    Portland, OR
    You don't need to remind everyone or anyone because it has nothing to do with anything. Should we start reassessing "The White Album" while we're at it? Do you even know what you're talking about by this point?
     
  12. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    I'm pretty sure it has something to do with something.
     
  13. bopdd

    bopdd Senior Member

    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Right, because Bickle is such a relatable character and we should all censor our art in accordance with what some nutjob might take away from it. I'll look for you with protest signs outside local "Joker" screenings. In the meantime, you can brush up on your Bradbury.
     
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  14. This Heat

    This Heat Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago, IL

    He didn't cast himself. How many times does this need to be explained to you?
     
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  15. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    I'm not sure why you're taking all this so personally, but Scorsese is not beyond reproach or criticism himself.

    He's the director. He's responsible for every set, character, editing choice, etc. He has creative control. I don't want to get into a semantic debate about "casting himself" but for all intents and purposes, he did.
     
  16. Joker to the thief

    Joker to the thief Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, UK
    Is violence aimed at adults and designed to shock and repulse that often leads to tragic consequences from characters that are designed to be seen as deeply flawed more or less harmful than sanitised consequence-less violence (no blood, no damage, no shock and designed for maximum ‘coolness’) aimed at children/teenagers that portrays violence as the moral answer to the world’s problems and divides the world in to simplistic heroes and villains?
     
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  17. bopdd

    bopdd Senior Member

    Location:
    Portland, OR
    I'm not taking it personally—I'm trying to convey the notion that what you're doing isn't actual film criticism (at least not in the traditional sense). It's also far less relevant to Scorsese's point than you seem to think it is. You're retroactively trying to assess his films as if they should've abided by the modern standards of social justice or some nonsense like that. It has nothing to do with their qualities as actual works of art.
     
  18. This Heat

    This Heat Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Aside from your strange idea that a director is responsible for every editing choice (here's a clue...the answer is almost always no), it's not a semantic issue. The role was cast for another actor. This has all been explained to you. It's a very common story. Yet, you insist on doubling down on being wrong and assigning meaning to something that was never supposed to happen--implying that he's somehow comfortable being a racist because you prefer to make up you own version of reality. And none of this has anything to do with whether he's op-ed raises legitimate points.
     
  19. the pope ondine

    the pope ondine Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia
    I get what youre saying how the Scorsese bit in the cab, is too much/too far...its the true ny as a circus or a sewer. the bottom.
    (ps deniro really sells that scene and never says a word)

    but your basing the racism or comfortable with racism claim on the soliloquy which he didn't write.....hes just playing the part. then we could say the same for every actor who taken a part saying racist things in a role. I could real out a laundry list of Oscar win ners who've done this, including some Marvel stars! ....and the rabbit hole of influencing real life .... no comic book movie fan should want that debate
     
  20. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR! Thread Starter

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Hey, folks. Can you please quote from the message to which you're responding? Some of the statements above make no sense at all to me (out of context). One sentence can make all the difference in the world.
     
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  21. Balthazar

    Balthazar Forum Resident



    I liked the original Exorcist bit have no interest in any sequels, so no, I haven't seen that. But, based on Schraeder's general output, I find half of the movies he directs stink, so it's not a surprise. Based on the Wiki article about the film, doesn't seem like the fault should necessarily be laid at his door for this one, but he's made enough stinkers that it's possible.

    Maybe he could have made a successful crappy movie instead of an unseccessful one if he'd had access to that endless Marvel money, but probably not. None of this changes the fact that he's actually done some interesting, solid films and is an astute student of cinema. His book on Ozu, Bresson, and Dreyer is great.

    You find Fat Joe and Li'l Wayne sexy? Whatever floats your boat, man.

    By the way, you're wrong. I don't know about ownership, but writing great literature means that those individuals have a greater than average insight into what is and isn't great literature. Same way that being a great mastering engineer means that someone has a greater than average insight into what is and isn't a great mastering. Or a great mechanic means that someone has a greater than average insight into how to fix a car, or a great engineer has a greater than average insight into how to produce a great car. Let's not play the game where we pretend everyone's opinion has equal weight. I value my mechanic's opinion as to how to fix my car more than I value my doctor's opinion about that and I value Joyce and Nabokov's opinions about great literature more than I would value yours or the writers of Marvel films.

    Wrong again. It's not an apples to oranges comparison. If you would like to explain how or why you think they're dissimilar, great, but merely saying something doesn't make it so.

    Ruffalo's comment is pure Disney PR, but if that tugs at your heart strings and makes you feel good, enjoy, but let's call it what it is.

    I don't blame him. Those movies are paying for his kids' polo ponies and I'd read whatever drivel they asked me to read if I were in his place. What I find odd is that a bunch of grown men with no financial investment in the public perception of these children's movies are defending them from reasonable criticism and outraged because an aging auteur filmmaker has a low opinion of them.

    It's not just that they're not "cinema" or high art. A lot of them just aren't very good movies. They're boring, derivative, and if you've seen one, you've seen them all. I don't care of they make two billion dollars, but don't ask me to pretend they're anything more than big budget soap operas with a lot of special effects.
     
  22. PhilBorder

    PhilBorder Senior Member

    Location:
    Sheboygan, WI
    Hulk not Soap Opera. Hulk delinate post-modern search for meaning within digressive ironies of popular culture.
     
  23. Claus

    Claus Senior Member

    Location:
    Germany
    Movies today are theme parks, incl. streaming.

    The screens are now reserved for films with a large budget and an already established brand. German director Roland Emmerich recently complained in the Süddeutsche News that in the "middle range" almost nobody wants to invest in Hollywood anymore. "Cheap horror films for five million and superhero films for 300 million are not a problem - but 100 million are.
     
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  24. This Heat

    This Heat Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Yup. This is exactly what is happening. No more middle
     
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  25. the pope ondine

    the pope ondine Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia

    here we go again :D
     
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