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Marvel Studios' Black Widow - Official Teaser Trailer

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by marmalade166, Dec 3, 2019.

  1. JediJones

    JediJones Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    The MCU made so little of Captain America being a "man out of his time" that I don't see much promise in making them time travel transplants. The movies usually just go for the action, and don't spend much time on exploring the characters' emotional reactions to things. And the idea of doing the Brady Bunch Movie in the MCU doesn't appeal to me. Just another opportunity for dumb comedy they already do too much of.

    I don't think the F4 characters themselves are dated. Just that the thing that made them hot in the '60s is now standard writing, the fact that they bickered and squabbled with each other. But they definitely shouldn't be portrayed as all happy-go-lucky. Reed should have trouble holding the team together. Emotions and tempers should run high. Put more drama and conflict into their relationships.

    Nothing at all dated about the space race. The private sector has just made it hot again. The private sector space race from a modern perspective would be a fantastic (no pun intended) way to handle their origin. Play them up as entrepreneurs. They don't need to be altruistic goody-two-shoes. They can be in the technology business trying to make a profit with their inventions.

    Sue and Reed need to have their love story explored. Let's not have the relationship be an automatic. Have complications that make it hard for them to get together or stay together. Namor was actually part of a love triangle with them in the comics. I think Sue would be a more sophisticated personality than Reed, who is more book smart and awkward. She's attracted to his intelligence but not necessarily satisfied with his relationship skills.

    The Thing still works. Just make sure the characterization is deep enough so we understand why he's depressed about his fate. He may be so angry that he's not sure if he should protect the world or lash out at it.

    Johnny Storm should be a rebel without a cause. He could be looking for ways to profit off his powers that get him in trouble, trusting the wrong people, or selling Reed's secrets out from under him.
     
  2. GregM

    GregM No static at all

    Location:
    Daddyland, CA
    Interesting! This made me think of the possibility to use the time travel and "outcast" trope of the characters to juxtapose the world of their comic book origins with the world of today when the space race is privatized and billionaire entrepreneurs are running the show. No one in the '60s ("Imagine not what your country can do for you...") had imagined it. But now it's real and I think we all don't know whether to be inspired or horrified by it. Many of us feel more kinship with yesterday's world than today's, and if there's a way to build that into the retelling of F4, it could be a key to making it work. Lot's of opportunity for humor too, but as you say they probably shouldn't overdo it. But your instinct to keep the story in present day would certainly make it less convoluted.
     
  3. Isaac K.

    Isaac K. Forum Resident

    The very first thing that showed the super genius of Reed Richards was his ability to take a civilian made rocket into space at a time when the space race was in its infancy and even well funded governments were having a difficult time of it. Just the fact that we are living in era now where somebody the likes of Jeff Bezos can accomplish shows how much of the origin would have to be rewritten. There's nothing "Fantastic" about getting into space now. It doesn't even qualify as sci-fi. It's a real thing. They would have to come up with something else, which they've already attempted twice and failed.

    But I'm sure that whatever they do they will change the characters significantly as they did with Peter Parker. In the comics Reed Richards is considerably older than Sue, like 10-20 years older. He's basically like a college professor dating one of his students. In the 60s that was more acceptable but today it's downright creepy. (although in Hollywood movies there's still a habit of casting far older leading men opposite the women so maybe nobody would notice.) I just hope that they don't give Dr. Doom any super powers like they have in the past. He's basically an evil Tony Stark with added Sorcerer Supreme magic wielding abilities and they should keep it like that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021 at 2:32 PM
  4. JediJones

    JediJones Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Yeah, the Doom powers came from Marvel's "Ultimate" comics, which were like Marvel voluntarily writing bad movie adaptations of their own characters and putting them into print. Just something desperate they did to increase sales during times of trouble, and trying to get out from under years of them mangling their own continuity, by writing stories disconnected from it. To distinguish the Ultimate comics, they had to change things about their characters. The movie picked that up, along with Doom getting his powers the same way the F4 did, which just makes him boring.

    Going into space isn't quite that "old hat" yet. What if Reed was a guy like Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos? Seems to me he is fairly Elon Musk like, except not a billionaire like him or Tony Stark. So I gather he would be working for a corporation as their chief scientist, but they are about to run out of money, and he rushes the space test before it's ready, leading to the accident. Ultimately, the space thing is just the device by which they get their powers. It's not something that's supremely integral to how they define themselves.

    Musk himself is 15 years older than his wife. I think it's still pretty common for wealthy men to have much younger wives. Reed isn't supposed to be a wealthy character as far as I know. But, anyway, I don't think the age difference is a key point to their characters, so no reason it has to be that way. The dominant fan casting for them is still Emily Blunt and John Krasinski, which is not bad at all, other than them both being on the older side, especially if they intend to have the baby Franklin later on in the series.

    As for humor, I see The Thing as potentially being a funny character, with self-deprecating humor directed towards himself. The humor would be a defense mechanism against his low self-esteem at his current state. Johnny Storm would be more of a fast-talking, charming con man type. Thing is not a warm and fuzzy guy, but he has more basic old-fashioned morality than Johnny, so gets irritated by Johnny being self-absorbed. Maybe some internet-era jokes about how they're posting cute pictures of how they're a happy family online while they're arguing and the team is falling apart. It's hard not to see Sue in the "straight role" as the voiee of reason trying to hold the team together, but she could also decide everyone else is too irresponsible and walk away.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021 at 3:06 PM
  5. ampmods

    ampmods Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, MA, USA
    Yeah that’s a good point.
     
  6. Brodnation

    Brodnation The Future Never Dies So Tomorrow Never Knows

    Location:
    Canada
    I think Jack Kirby might have to disagree with that.

    [​IMG]
     
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  7. JediJones

    JediJones Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    That's Kirby making a Hanukkah card on his own and plugging a character in. Kirby may have intended Thing to be Jewish in his head canon, but it just wasn't part of the canon of the comics. And we know Stan Lee was writing all the words in the F4 comic and says he didn't intend it. There was also plenty of time to reveal him as Jewish in the '70s, '80s or '90s, when there was no taboo about using religion in comics. Marvel had revealed Magneto to be Jewish in the '70s, created Kitty Pryde as Jewish in the '80s, and revealed Moon Knight as Jewish a few years into his '80s series. But they didn't say Thing was Jewish until 2002. That would make more sense to me if he converted to Judaism, but to say a character who was in comics every month had that background for 40 years (even in comic book time) and it just never came up is a lot of retroactive continuity to accept.
     
  8. Holerbot6000

    Holerbot6000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    California
    I always liked the Four Horsemen thread that Reed, Victor, Bruce Banner and Tony Stark all went to college together. Too late to factor that in now but that would have been a good thread to pull at to introduce the FF into the modern Marvel cinematic universe.

    I do think though that introducing a modern FF is quite doable, especially with all these corporate types going into space at the moment.
     
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  9. JediJones

    JediJones Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I really like Doom as an outside threat, given he is the ruler of a foreign country. I don't want to get close to those Superboy stories where we find out Lex and Clark knew each other as schoolkids. Makes all the continuity too inbred.

    I could see the F4's dysfunctional drama forcing them to disband in the movie, and then Doom using that as an opportunity to attack. Maybe the F4 were able to obtain some rare element in space before they had their accident that Doom is after. He could rip through their physical defenses with weapons from his suit and incapacitate Reed and/or Sue with magic. Maybe they escape with their lives, but then Thing and Torch have to rejoin the team to help stop Doom from whatever he plans to do with the element.

    I could see the cute H.E.R.B.I.E. robot being used too just in the same way that Stark had his digital assistants.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021 at 5:09 PM
  10. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    My friend, TV/comics writer Mark Evanier, has said on several occasions that he worked for Jack Kirby for several years in the 1970s and got to know the artist and writer very well. Mark said he once asked him, "you took great pains to never show Dr. Doom without the metal mask after he was injured. What did he look like?" And Kirby reportedly shrugged and remarked, "Doom was as handsome as a male model prior to the lab accident. Wouldn't it be interesting if there was only a small 2" scar on the man's face... and it drove him mad, because it spoiled his otherwise perfect appearance?"

    Quite a few fans and historians have noted the similarities between Dr. Doom and Darth Vader: both supervillains who were injured, then wore robotic suits that gave them extremely dangerous powers. It's fair to say that Marvel had the idea 15 years before Star Wars.
     
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  11. JediJones

    JediJones Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Apparently in 1964 they told his origin as him being scarred in a lab accident. Then he has a metal mask fashioned for himself to cover his face, but he puts it on while it's still hot, and burns his face, presumably causing more damage. He did actually attend the same college as Reed as an international student, and ignored Reed's advice on his experiment that ended up going wrong. I'm assuming this flashback is the first time we see Victor's unmasked face.

    I don't know if they showed his scarred face in that issue or not, but in 1985, the origin is retold, and it's shown that the original accident caused a "single scar running down the side of his face from left eye down to his chin." And then they tell the part about him forging the mask and burning his face.

    In the 1980s Secret Wars series, he got cosmic powers that healed his face, and they showed him unmasked with the healed face at that time. And he looked a lot like Julian McMahon from the first movie, so that was good casting. Not sure what happened after that, but it sounds like his face has been damaged and healed various times since, and been shown in various conditions. I think Marvel Comics were all pretty consistent and disciplined for 30 years after their superhero relaunch in 1962, but starting in the '90s, they started contradicting themselves, doubling back on things and becoming too convoluted for their own good.

    Jack talks about the scar story in quotes in this blog, but in the comments, people seem to think he only came up with that in the 1970s, and it's not consistent with the original drawings where Doom wears a lot of bandages after the accident. However, John Byrne in the 1980s seems to have revised the origin to fit with Kirby's concept. Nevertheless, Doom was drawn with scars visible through his eye sockets, because the story still seemed to always be that the hot iron mask burned his face, even it wasn't very damaged from the initial accident he wanted to cover up.

    In Their Own Words: Who Created The Fantastic Four? Stan & Jack Speak!

    Still, I like the idea better for the movie that he repeatedly talks about his face being hideously scarred beneath his mask, but we later find out it's only that one scratch. I don't think we need Reed to be involved in his origin. The whole, I have a grudge against you from when something went bad between us as kids, is an outdated trope.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021 at 7:14 PM
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  12. Brodnation

    Brodnation The Future Never Dies So Tomorrow Never Knows

    Location:
    Canada
    I deeply envy how you get to casually talk about your really cool friends. :D
     
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  13. Brodnation

    Brodnation The Future Never Dies So Tomorrow Never Knows

    Location:
    Canada
    Doom’s origin was first shown in Annual #2 of Fantastic Four. He was trying an experiment to contact the nether world and Reed warns him his calculations are inaccurate. Upon starting, the machine explodes and Doom is seen in the next panel covered in bandages.

    And while Stans dialogue says “His helper miraculously escaped with minor injuries! As for Victor Von Doom his face was helplessly disfigured!!” That could just be Stan and Jack setting up for a reveal potentially later on, as we never see Dooms scarred face after the accident until he has his mask on. Only descriptions of how allegedly grotesque it.

    *Also, while it is mentioned that Dooms mask hadn’t fully cooled from being forged yet, it’s never mentioned explicitly in the origin wether or not it additionally scars him or not. Although in the next story in the Annual, Doom takes off his mask and looks in the mirror and yells “No! No! It’s even worse than I remembered!” but even in that story Jack goes out of his way to never show Dooms face.
     
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  14. Roland Stone

    Roland Stone Offending Member

    I saw the Fantastic Four movie with Silver Surfer and it was very faithful to the original comics. So faithful that it seemed the comics had been the storyboard. But that included the silly dialogue, exaggerated personalities and elementary relationships. They'd have to do something to keep it in tone with the current MCU.
     
  15. JediJones

    JediJones Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    The original John Byrne page from the 1980s retelling of the origin was sold on auction a few years ago, it looks like. It was billed as Doom's "first-ever post-accident face reveal." As you can see here, the scar isn't exactly small, but not completely grotesque either. This makes it seem a little more reasonable that he'd be upset about it, as opposed to being so small that other people wouldn't notice it. Kirby's description sounds like he envisioned it being smaller than this. Byrne's intention seemed to be to make Doom vain, but not completely delusional.

    [​IMG]

    Also color shots of the issue here. Scar looks worse in the second shot:

    NOT A HOAX! NOT A DREAM!: FANTASTIC FOUR #278

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2021 at 11:46 AM
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  16. Brodnation

    Brodnation The Future Never Dies So Tomorrow Never Knows

    Location:
    Canada
    And although it wasn’t done until the 80s, this drawing by Kirby seems to be inline with what he talked about. (Also an extremely rare treat of being able to see Jack draw.)


    [​IMG]
     
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