Marvin Gaye - What's Going On - DETROIT MIX

I like both mixes myself. There's certain bits that need the raw emotion of the Detroit mix and certain bits that need the sugarcoating of the remix.
It's all good.

 

You know, I read this *somewhere*, but you know how it is sometimes when you read something, it stays with you, but you can't recall exactly where you read it? Like I said, I could have read someone's speculation, and, of course, speculation is not fact.

We'll never know for sure, now will we? Marvin was a tortured soul. From what I have always understood about Mr. Gaye is that he was stubborn and wanted his way, but was many times unsure of himself, which caused him to question himself, and trying to please people.

We'll never know that for sure, now will we?...wait...perhaps I read this in his autobiography "Divided Soul" by David Nathan. I'll look for my copy and see if that's where I got my information.

 

or maybe the "painkillers" Marvin was on..... ...flying high in the friendly sky...i mean.....

flyin' high

hold the G on that one...

 

Well, I found my book by David Ritz, and haven't found what i'm looking for. I know I read what I read *somewhere*...

 

According to the Ben Edmonds book (page 193):

Nowhere does it say that Marvin was under pressure by Berry Gordy or anyone to remix it. The only pressure was timing - to get the album finished and out in stores.

Edmonds interviewed dozens of people who worked for Motown and/or were involved with the making of the album. The man did his research. I believe if there was pressure from Motown to change the mix, we would have read all about it. Instead, the only place I've ever read anything about Motown demanding a new mix is on this esteemed forum of ours.


As it is, I think we have to accept that Marvin - and Marvin alone - initiated the remix for reasons known only to him. He was an artist. Obviously he heard a different album in his head than the one he "nailed" in Detroit. Why can't people accept this? Instead, some people would rather accept the notion that Marvin released an album that wasn't true to his vision. We need to give Marvin more credit than that, regardless of which mix you prefer.

 

I'm feeling you on this...emphasis on the "G"...thanks for making it clearer the truth. I may have gotten the other impressions from dialogue in this very forum at one point as Grant thinks may have happened to him as well.

 

I've always heard that the real pressure came for the single, which was released well before the album. Marvin recorded the hit, it was rejected at first for its subject matter, but he stood his ground and refused to record anything else. It eventually was released and became huge, at which point I think Berry Gordy hustled him into the studio to capitalize and make an album around it. After this, I didn't think there was any more question about Marvin's artistic freedom.

 

I listened to the Detroit mix on the way into work today and it felt a little dry to me, like a cake without icing. But there's more to it than simple sugar coating. On the Detroit mix it's all laid out in its constituent parts, easily heard, easily discerned. Some of the mystery is lost, imo. I like the drenched-in-echo blend of instruments and voices, the thickness of it all. Sounds dart in and out, under and over each other, all of which contributes to the dream-like quality that, in the end, gives it (as Chris M. always says) "the Spook."

Whatever happened in LA constitutes what others around here like to call a sprinkling of fairy dust.

 

Tom, I'm voting for you for "best writer" in this forum! i love the way you can toss off an amazing group of well written sentences that blasts my meager writing style out of the water...envy is my middle name....

 

Tom, you nailed it on the head!

Since this thread started I've been listening to both versions a lot. The Detroit version sounds to me like a rough mix and the LA version sounds much smoother and refined. In particular the segues are better on the LA version. What's interesting is listening to the original single mix of WGO - I really love that.

BTW - I remember reading years and years ago that the original mix was vetoed by Berry Gordy and he insisted Marvin redo it, so certainly the rumour didn't start here on the forum.

Bobby Sutliff

 

I wrote earlier that I preferred the Detroit mix, but that was before I found a mastering of the LA mix that I liked. The '98 Lurssen CD just sounds wrong to my ears. This is one case where the mastering really affects my enjoyment of the music.... a lot of the "blurriness" and "gauzy" sound that I attributed to the mix was actually a result of the mastering! The LA mix sounds fantastic on the older 1986 Motown discs!

 

We don't have to accept anything! Some of us do not accept this thinking because there is NOTHING to confirm what you believe. Just because he remixed and re-recorded parts of it does not mean he didn't like the first version. And, Bob never elaborated on why Marvin broke down.

 

Grant, do you really think Marvin broke down because he didn't like Larry Miles' mix? Do you really think this? Really? Please tell me you're joking. Please please please please....

And I'm sorry, but again - there is absolutely not one shred of evidence that Marvin was pressured into remixing the album. None. If you choose to believe it, you are believing in fiction.


This is so full of nonsense. I give up!

 

Whatever the facts surrounding the remixing of the album I can't help feeling that the "Detroit Mix" is closer to Marvin's original vision, afterall he was by all accounts heavily involved in the mixing of the album with Steve Smith whereas, as far as I know, he was not involved with creating the LA mix. I wonder if perhaps he had a lack of confidence in the mix he personally "labored over" with Steve Smith in Detroit:

We can't know for sure if Marvin really preferred the remix which, according to Bob:

OK, apparently:

Maybe Marvin was just overwhelmed by the relief of hearing a decent mix that didn't expose his inner-self as much as his earlier mix had - it's hard to totally let go of one's protective instincts of your innermost emotional being when releasing art to the whole world....

As before, all this is pure conjecture on my part - still, until I hear definitive evidence to the contrary I don't see it as too far fetched to believe that something along these lines may have happened.....

 

Wow, I hear it completely opposite to that - for example, the edit from "God Is Love" into "Mercy Mercy Me" on the Detroit mix is absolute perfection to my ears whereas is almost sounds randomly placed on the remix!

This mix is essentially a mono version of the "Detroit Mix" in terms of the overall approach - it's much closer to the "Detroit Mix" than it is to the "LA Mix", put it that way.....

That's my recollection too - I didn't think it started on this forum.....

 

Larry Miles has said that Marvin had input into the LA mix.

Again, this is in the Ben Edmonds book.

From page 195:

So Larry Miles was there, sitting next to Marvin. Marvin had a vision of how the album should sound, and Larry Miles translated that vision into sound. We know from Bob Olhsson that upon hearing the final product, Marvin broke down in tears.

I cannot for the life of me understand how there can be any doubt that the album that came out in 1971 is what Marvin wanted the world to hear.

Where in the world are people coming up with these other theories? There are no facts to back them up. None.

 

This is the internet. We don't let facts get in the way of a good fantasy.

 

That's not what Bob Olhsson says.....

Do you mean facts such a person actually around at the time with intimate knowledge of the project disputing what is written in this book by Ben Edmonds, perhaps?

It's all specualtion to a point, of course - no need to get upset over anything though. We can all like either mix for any reason we choose - but it's fun to speculate, no?......

 

I've asked Bob (via PM) to drop by this thread to add his comments. Perhaps he can add a bit more clarity to this thread.

I find it hard to believe that Edmonds misquoted Larry Miles, or that Larry Miles is making things up, but I'll let the conspiracy theorists work that one out.

Speculation is one thing. However, a comment that basically says "the Detroit mix is what Marvin really intended but he was forced to remix it" is not speculation. It's an assertion made with no basis in fact.

Sorry if I seem to take this too seriously, but What's Going On is a sacred album to me, as it is to many people. I really hate to read comments that more or less say that Marvin was forced to compromise on this album when there is no evidence to back it up. Marvin deserves better.

 

Wow, what a firestorm! I'll add what I know to the confusion.

First off, there seem to be two Detroit mixes, one done by Marvin and Steve Smith and one Russ Terranna's brother told me that Russ did that I never knew anything about until recently. I have no idea which is in the box.

What happened in LA is that Marvin decided he wanted to add some keyboard parts to a few songs. Larry Miles did the overdub session and then remixed the whole album the following Sunday without Marvin present. Larry was basically betting his job on Marvin liking his mix. Larry told me that Marvin broke down in tears when he played the new mixes for him.

The whole album was done really fast because the single was in the top ten before the rest of the album had even been written. It's amazing what people can accomplish when they need to.

 

Thanks for chipping in your recollections, Bob

For the UMG Deluxe Edition these are the details given with respect to the "Detroit Mix":

Mixed by Steve Smith, Motown mix room (Woodward Avenue), Detroit, MI, April 5, 1971

Side 1: master number HS-1867-1, matrix number A4RS-2682
Side 2: master number HS-1868-1, matrix number A4RS-2684


It looks like they must have taken these details from the Master Tape Legend from the tape boxes so presumably it really is the Marvin Gaye / Steve Smith "Detroit Mix" on this release.

If anyone knows any more about this Russ Terranna mix I'd love to hear more about it

 

I doubt Russ has heard the Deluxe Edition, so no use of me asking him.

See, that is open to interpretation. Does this mean Marvin liked it or hated it? Or, does it mean something else entirely? We will never know!

The sound quality of the Steve Smith mix that's on the CD set is fantastic! If you haven't heard it yet, Bob, buy it or find a copy of it and give it a listen!

 

It's a very personal album to me too. It's just that we both are assuming what we believe is the absolute truth.

 

For what it's worth, The "Larry remixed the album by himself on a Sunday" story is addressed and refuted in the Edmonds book, by none other than Larry Miles himself. I'd quote the entire passage, but I'm too tired right now. It's on page 194, just before the passage I quoted above. I have no reason to believe Larry has been misquoted, or is mistaken.

I'm not assuming anything. Have you read my posts? I'm quoting people who were directly involved with the making of the album. I'm not basing my belief on some half-baked rumor that can't be substantiated. If anyone comes forward with concrete evidence that Marvin had the album remixed by order of Motown mangement, I'll accept it. Until then, it's just someone's fantasy.

 

Not that I know anything about this, but did Larry lose his job? I'd figure that would be a clue.

Geoff