MC/MM vs Optical cartridge

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Vinylleroy, Nov 28, 2022.

  1. Vinylleroy

    Vinylleroy Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Netherlands
    For some years I have used the Audio Technica VM750SH Cartridge on my VPI turntable with a Unison Research S6 Tube amp.

    I'm considering a new cartridge and was talking to my dealer about the options. I was thinking about a MC cartridge when he (the audio dealer) asked me to consider the DS Audio cartridges as well. He has one installed and I listened to it on Audio Note speakers and Avantgarde speakers.

    The (micro)details and dynamics are very clear and very different from what I have heard from other cartridges. Still, I can't help to think that this isn't wat vinyl is about, it feels like it's more of a CD player then a conventional TT.

    That's why I am wondering if there are people on this forum that can maybe tell me a bit more about this cartridge technology and their experience with it.

    Thank you in advance,

    Leroy
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2022
  2. MrRom92

    MrRom92 Forum Supermodel

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    I’ve been really impressed by the principal of the optical cartridge and think it has a lot of potential. However, I would like to hear a 24/192 optical cart needledrop, and for comparison’s sake a similar needledrop of the same record played with a different cart/phono stage. This isn’t a comparison that has been made available online yet AFAIK

    On a needledrop sample I previously had of one of DS Audio’s optical carts, there was some concerning unexplained high frequency noise visible on the spectrogram. Yes, ultrasonic so it shouldn’t be audible. But also probably shouldn’t be there at all. I don’t know exactly what part of the signal chain was responsible for that, and it very well may not have been the cart at all.

    I think a controlled comparison with a minimum of variables would let one see and hear exactly what the optical cartridge brings to the table.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2022
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  3. grass-fed

    grass-fed Forum Resident

    Location:
    Germany
    I know what you mean.

    At the same time, many of the descriptions from people who have been in the game for way longer than I have seem to put it as you being able to get closer to a $100,000 turntable/phono pre/isolation system without having to spend all that money.

    Then again, maybe the imperfections are what make things so nice. Seems to come up a lot with tubes as well...

    The main plus for me is that I still haven't invested in a good phono pre yet. If I already had one, the extra expense of the equalizer would be enough to keep me away.
     
  4. ThinWhiteDuke

    ThinWhiteDuke Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Zealand
    I'd love to know what the 'resolution' is of the average lathe cutter head, and whether or not an increase in the sensitivity is worth it at a certain price point as you can't get out what was never there in the first place. Do you really want to spend 10 x the price?

    I'm sceptical that an optical solution is worth the money indeed if things are too sensitive isn't it possible like the laser cartridge you will simply get way too much noise? Are you able to borrow the cart and test it at home on your rig before committing?

    However to your statement "it feels like it's more of a CD player then a conventional TT" there should be no comparison, after all an analogue needle still drags a rock through the groove and generates an electrical signal in the cartridge head that is amplified and sent out to the speakers. So there's little change in the overall concept and there's nothing digital about it. The only difference is in how the electrical signal is generated and whether or not there is an improvement in the generation (there is as the output strength level doesn't vary with frequency apparently) - but there is no discussion on whether or not this is desirable.

    My concern is that the entire process was designed along with the RIAA curve to work based on some very crude audio principles and modern tech could end up detecting and amplifying all the inherent flaws in this crude mechanical system. Kinda like putting a magnifying glass onto old school newspaper print, it's not desirable to have more detail, less is actually better.
     
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  5. Daddy Dom

    Daddy Dom Lodger

    Location:
    New Zealand
    I would love to drop some serious money on a DS cartridge (but can't) so am curious about this.
    However ...
    The immediate elephant in the room is that you'd be comparing apples with oranges as the DSs have their own dedicated phono stage thing.

    So, the person doing an A/B could only use their present cart/stage and all we could do is listen.

    One might still gain some insight; for example if I did the A/B all I could say is,"File A is the DS Audio and File B is a Hana ML/Graham Slee Reflex C."
    And you'd say, okay, I have this cart/phono stage and that's better or worse than that ...!

    But yeah, would love to hear it A/Bd with something!
     
  6. Vinylleroy

    Vinylleroy Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Netherlands
    That last sentence makes a very good point... I'm sure I can test it in my own system, the problem is that I don't have a MC cartridge + a good Phono stage to compare it with. I have never tried a good MC either in my own system.

    I'm not meaning to compare it to a CD player on a technical ground, but I tend to think that it's more digital than a conventional cartridge. On the other hand, I don't really hear a very big disadvantage, only that there is stuff that I don't hear anymore. I have to listen to these cartridges a bit more, to be able to make a good and fair conclusion on that.

    Thank you for your comment.



    Absolutely true.
     
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  7. petercw2

    petercw2 Forum Resident

    Location:
    tx
    My dealer was able to do A/B sessions with DS Audio on a table with two matching arms. And yes, the phono stage was different between the two, I considered that part of the whole package - once you considered the price. I was always blown away by the performance of DSA, but I also did not purchase one in the end because my overall goals benefited from a change of pre-amps both line and phono stages.

    That said, some of the A/B sessions of even the entry level DSA vs a MM/MC that retailed for 2-3X was never not anything less than obvious and impressive.
     
    chipcalzada likes this.
  8. ThinWhiteDuke

    ThinWhiteDuke Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Zealand
    If you do decide to go ahead and purchase one of the DS Audio carts please let us all know what it's like :)
     
  9. Ampexed

    Ampexed Forum Resident

    Location:
    Santa Fe, NM
    Ultimately, the technology is limited by the act of dragging a rock through a vinyl groove. The technology which translates the signals from that rock to the rest of the chain I believe is far less important. Find a cartridge with the best rock (Shibata for me) and associated mechanical bits as you can.
     
  10. chipcalzada

    chipcalzada Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Philippines
    I had a DS Audio 003 cart and phono equalizer (optical phono stage) for a few days in my room and it was very very good. What it does well: Noise floor is virtually non-existent, uber black background, vivid sound yet not clinical, makes non-audiophile pressings sound really good. The only reason I didn't pull the trigger is that I had just bought new speakers and my discretionary funds were tapped out. I still hope to have one in the future, but there are days when I put a record on and it sounds really good and I ask myself: what for?
     
    GyroSE likes this.
  11. chipcalzada

    chipcalzada Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Philippines
    A follow-up thought: If I were to build my system from scratch I would definitely go with the DS Audio Cart, performance wise you'd have to spend much more to reach that level of sound quality. However, if you already have a decent MC cart and phono stage then perhaps you could spend that money on a nice vacation.
     
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  12. Vinylleroy

    Vinylleroy Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Netherlands
    Will do!


    Thank you! I have a MM cartridge and a phone stage from Remton. The phono stage isn't compatible with MC cartridges, so I have to get a new phono stage as well.

    I'm moving to a new house in the beginning of 2023, after I moved I'll go further down this road and try this cartridge in my own setup.
     

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