Michael Jackson's "Thriller" - It was Toto Album...

"Rosanna" is a great tune. Love the N'awlins breakdown at the end of it. Not Beatles-like to me at all but a great tune is a great tune.

Ed

 

You're trying to argue that they were unknown in 1983 because people don't recognize them in 2015 as much as they did in 1983. If you believe that MTV contributed to album and 45 sales, you have to acknowledge that people paid attention to the band members' faces, making them recognizable in 1983. You also have to acknowledge that the band's visibility has lived on through YouTube.

People in this thread seem to be trying to compare Toto to the most popular acts in the history of music. Of course Toto isn't as popular as other acts from the era like Michael Jackson. They had a great amount of visibility in 1982-83 through MTV and have had the same since the advent of YouTube, however. "Africa" has 70 million views on YouTube, by the way. Obviously, people know the faces from that video and would be able to identify those faces after doing so, especially with the beard and moustache.

 

Neither Ringo, nor Paul for that matter, would be able to play the drum part, for one.

 

No way. That's Purdie and a few other things. Such great feel.

Ed

 

I really like Tofu.

 

I was around when they were on MTV. No one knew their names. I didn't know their names. Their marketing strategy never made be bother to figure that out until some time later. Few could attach names to the faces nor could many even remember the faces.

...because they know "Africa". The people don't matter. They do to you, me, and others but not to the population en mass. Toto can't get arrested on these shores and that has a lot to do with it. After "Toto IV", their popularity dropped considerably here in the States. "Isolation" did nothing with only the excellent "Stranger in Town" getting airplay. "I'll Be Over You" was the end of the line for them and there had been space between that tune and the hits. Joseph never sang on a giant hit because they weren't really having them by "The Seventh One". They were big in Japan but definitely not here.

Ed

 

I love the 'Rosanna shuffle'. Such a cool groove. I believe the radio/45 edit trims off Porcaro's intro, which is such a shame.

 

It was also an 'issue' that they weren't exactly photogenic dudes either. It's difficult to describe Bobby Kimball or David Paich as MTV idol material. And unlike homely types like, say, Huey Lewis or Phil Collins, the Toto guys didn't project a quirky or zany or 'regular guy' personality either in their videos. That's not a knock on Toto (because I'm sure it was a choice), but it's true, they didn't have a visual identity, so very few casual fans would have known their names, even in their MTV/Top 40 radio prime.

 

It got worse when Bobby Kimball left IMO. I stopped listening for them by that point. His voice mixed with the others well, he did good leads. I don't think anyone else was quite as suited for the role as he was--and they got more faceless after that.

True. Sadly I knew who they all were but of course I'm insane. Nope, not much to do with them in videos and that too got worse and worse.

 

That's true: Toto after Bobby Kimball became a bit like Chicago after Peter Cetera. Joseph Williams had even more of a non-profile than Kimball had, much like Jason Scheff of Chicago. The likes of "I'll Be Over You" and "Pamela" are formulaic Top 40 rock ballads (and I say that as a fan who likes both songs); they could even be Jason Scheff/Chicago songs.

 

If the videos didn't stay in regular rotation and MTV wasn't playing their new videos, why would people remember their faces? I'm talking about the height of their popularity and you're talking about lasting popularity up until the YouTube era. Their marketing strategy on the "Rosanna" and "Africa" videos was to present them as a complete band devoid of any one star. If they achieved that by people focusing on the band as a whole, then the band achieved its goals. The Beatles tried an egalitarian approach in some of their business dealings and album artwork after Epstein died and only lasted two years.

Toto's decline in popularity on the top 40 charts likely had at least something to do with losing Kimball for many years. Also, funny how Oatsdad tries to pigeonhole the band as generic sounding with Kimball, yet the band declined in popularity immediately after Kimball, a key vocal member, left the band. If people wanted more of Kimball, who sang on the bulk of Toto IV, and he wasn't around anymore, that would have been a problem for the band. Nobody expects most major acts to lose a major lead vocalist and maintain the same kind of popularity.

 

Pay attention to the different arguments that I'm making, grasshopper.

 

I think that's somewhat true, but I think the major issue was that Isolation was a mediocre follow up to IV. That was a decisive blow to their momentum. I don't know if the public wanted more Kimball per se; but I'm sure they wanted more songs like "Africa" and "Rosanna" and the material on IV, and they didn't find it on Isolation (and nor did MTV or Top 40 radio program directors). Likewise, Fahrenheit lacked the kind of undeniable hit to put the album on a platinum track. As I said in a previous post, "I'll Be Over You" was a pretty, but formulaic rock ballad; not the type of song to reignite Toto commercially. But yeah, I'm sure the loss of Kimball was a factor. Losing a key member can upset the equilibrium or dynamic of any band, and usually does.

 

Phil Collins may have successfully projected a regular guy persona during his solo heyday, however there are reports and comments from insiders that he was a weirdo, a creep even. There are some clues to this dark side in his songs but most probably thought him too bland to look deeper. Then that Rolling Stone interview of about ten years ago, he came across as nearly deranged.

I feel that Toto would have stood a better chance had they hired a producer who would help them define their sound from the outset.

 

The band has had a ton of success since day 1. Their fourteen years of gold and platinum records, except for their third album, is impressive. There is a limit to a band's success when they lose key members and aren't actively seeking commercial success. That Toto self-produced their fourth album and all of their other gold and platinum albums except for Hydra, shows that Columbia could generally count on them to get album, top 40, and rock chart hits for ten years or so.

I see what you are saying, I think. Maybe a producer who stayed with a band for a long time, like Ted Templeman with the Doobies and Van Halen or Gary Katz with Steely Dan would have had even more success with the band. We would probably have to ask the band why they decided to forego outside producers for so long.

 

I was exactly thinking of Templeman with Van Halen.

I agree Toto was very successful, selling over 25 million albums worldwide. Obviously they had great musicianship too. But how much of a legacy did the band leave? This is where they fall short in my opinion.

 

That's actually not the point but whatever...

 

Yeah. After "Pamela", which was the lyrical opposite of "Rosanna", it was pretty much over for their chart success. I was waiting for them to put out a song called "Susannah".

The only thing recognizable about Toto were the names behind it. Jeff and Steve Porcaro, Steve Lukather, David Paich, and some other dude, I think. As music fan, I knew who they were, but average people didn't. They started off with a rock song, but then released "Georgie Porgie" which sounded like a Boz Scaggs song, and then "99" which was forgettable. But, they hit it out of the ballpark from the first single and album. That first album was stellar. It's the best one, IMO. "IV" was boring, despite the hits "Rosanna" and "Africa", which I was never a big fan of.

But, maybe they really didn't care that much. They played on all kinds of hit albums from Boz Scaggs, to Cheryl Lynn, to The Brothers Johnson, to Quincy Jones, to the Gloved one. They made their mark in history anyway.

 

Clearly Lukather cares - if he didn't, this thread wouldn't exist!

 

They aren't done yet!

 

They might not be done recording, but because this is not the 1980's anymore they are effectively done.

There's no shame in being known for having a bunch of hits in only one decade.

 

Plenty of bands/artists weren't especially good-looking. Ric Ocasek was as odd-looking as they come and he became a star - and was known to the general public by sight and name, unlike the anonymous members of Toto.

Ocasek managed to create a sort of personality, as did Meat Loaf, another not-exactly-attractive guy.

As you say, Toto made zero attempt to cultivate an identity. They're just some guys moaning about continents or blonde babes in their videos - they show no personality at all. Add to that the "fat guys with bad facial hair" look cultivated by Paich and Kimball and it's no wonder they remained so anonymous.

Watching those videos, it's fairly amazing they got exposure - the videos for "Africa" and "Rosanna" are pretty bad, even by the era's standards...

 

According to Wiki, the last Toto album peaked at #98 in the US. Given the current sales market, the number of copies required to get to #98 is really, really low - not exactly threatening Adele for chart supremacy, are they?

 

Hey.....wait just a minute there! Phil may have released some cornball tunes in his day. But he is one of the best drummers of all time and a pretty down-to-earth fellow. I've been following Genesis forever and have never heard anything about him being a "creep." Quite the opposite for everyone involved with Genesis; they all seem like decent people really, particularly as rock stars go.

What is your source for this?