And is the only reason one would use the washer and why it's supplied, to be used under dished records and thats all.
It confirms that a table I have owned for a few years required some experimenting early on in the beginning with a clamp system that I do not like. I have no idea what you are saying here. The fact is, the washer should not be used with heavy weight records. It is also not good for flattening LPs generally at all. The Orbe screw style does this better, as does my friends SME 15 screw style clamp. So to sum, pretty worthless exchange of words for today. For the sake of thread and anyone who reads it in the future: experiment with your clamp and find what you like best.
This^^ Unless the record is dished a washer is not used. Anyway I'm done here, tried to provide information on the proper use of a Reflex Clamp, but the OP needs to learn on their own. Perhaps this will be clear for and usable for another beginner.
Lol, because someone named you the authority on Michells clamps? Michell themselves provide no instructions with the clamp. This thread is about my experience with the standard Michell clamp. Others like @GyroSE, have shared their experience with using it that is positive, and managed to do it without being condescending. I have stated several times that I could easily see why most people prefer to use it.
No but I learn the right way to use a reflex clamp without pushing away the educator. BTW a proper Reflex clamp is designed with a hollow cavity in the base of the clamp. This in conjunction with a washer under a dish record acts as a leveraging arm, flexing the record the other direction. A flat bottom clamp can not do this, thus is not a reflex clamp and can't be used with a soft washer. But a reflex clamp without the washer and with a flat record will act as a standard clamp. Sorry Michell did not provide you with all the info to get started on the right foot. Since it's so hard to upload photos here and actually post a how-to with many of them, here's a thread of mine on AK. I hope this helps the confusion and that non members can see the images posted. If You Have a Turntable You Should Have a Record Clamp
None of this is relevant to the question of whether someone prefers the sound with or without the clamp. I’m not sure if you read the OP (most people these days don’t seem to.) obviously you prefer with. Got it.
Yes the Orbe clamp is an improvement over the standard Michell clamp- it’s easier to adjust in a more precise way during the ”clamping process”. I got an Orbe clamp upgrade kit for my Gyro SE a little over a year ago but I haven’t mounted it yet.
Actually, I prefer the record flat and coupled to the platter for a few reasons. I take a bunch of time setting up VTA and VTF, thats all out the window with inconstant records that can change it. A clamp will make this as consistent as possible flattening the record to the platter. If your record is doing this in playback it's constantly changing the VTA as well as the VTF and resonance fluctuation. This all effects the sound we get in playback, so it's very relevant to what we hear. If we use the clamps improperly that will also effect the SQ we get. I would say proper use and being consistent like with the tightening will help SQ because we then have a foundation to setup VTA. I prefer the sound of my tabes with a clamp because they are helping my setup. This has nothing to do with hearing something different out of different makes of clamps and weights though.
The thing is a little over a year ago I got my Michell Orbe SE and the process with the Gyro stalled a bit. I’ll let you know if I get around installing it.
Yes, but I don't use it anymore, in fact I only used it about a month. SOTA Star decks workout better for me due to my floors, so it just sits in limbo.
Yeah well I was going to buy a board and at least put my extra 309 on it and do the Orb platter swap. But it's not good in my room, I have raised bouncy floors so it's not being used.
I assume that you mean that footfalls on your wood floors causes the Gyro suspension to bounce and ultimately, the cartridge to skip. I have struggled with that issue myself. My 25' x 17' mancave, errr, listening room, is above a three car garage with no intermediate support columns. The floors are flexible. In an effort to change the evident harmonic resonance between the Gyro suspension and my floor, I experimented by placing a small cotton ball between the spring coils in each of the three suspension towers. The suspension still has considerable bounce but I experience no more skips from footfalls. Whether the Gyro sounds better or not with cotton damped suspension is moot; it was virtually unlistenable previously.
Yes I have to tip toe to and from the table when using it. It got better when I dropped the suspension all the way down onto the felt bumper pads. SOTA uses a hanging suspension that is very smooth in reversing transitions so it takes a lot to make it skip. They also tune their springs by inserting foam in them as you did with the cotton so maybe I'll give your tip a try. But I'v never found a table that you can do this with other than a SOTA. When I'm not pounding on it I'm jumping up and down to make it bounce.
They are, when John Michell was designing the Gyro, he used the SME V arm as his reference, and always demo'd the 'table at audio shows with the SME. Here's mine depicting my Koetsu Urushi Vermilion being set up using my Uni-Protractor
Yes give it a try at least. Put the Gyro on a wall shelf or something similar- the Michell decks and the SME arms sound really good when combined.
Well as it was setup with the Techno arm and Blackbird staged in my system right along side with my SOTA Stars, SME V and Blackbirds, there was no real sound quality difference. The SOTA and Gyro patters are very similar in weight and build using a thick vinyl mimicking matt, as they both use that term in their promotion. Now that doesn't mean the SME V or 309 will not out perform the Techno arm on the Gyro. As you can see in the vid I posted of the SOTA, the Series V sticks like glue and will track though extreme conditions. You can't do what I did in the vid with all arms, the arm is part of the isolation performance shown. Perhaps a SMEs will work better on the Gyro to help eliminate skips. However, the SOTA Stars add more performance over the Gyro. As mention it's very hard to beat the SOTA suspension and isolation in a table this size and cost. Adjustable weight in the corner the arm of choice mounts as well as better boards. This keeps the subchassis and suspension balanced and tuned to a known constraint. It also has a vacuum platter for consistent coupling and flattening of the record. Witch brings us back to the start of this thread, clamping a record to the platter. Setting a weight on the label does not do the same thing as a good clamping system and putting it to use correctly.
For a while I used the o ring technique with the regular clamp. Worked well but I recently switched to the orbe clamp, which couples more reliably and without giving the suspension a constant workout. I always think people should go with what they prefer. For me, over damping shouldn't be a risk, as I'd want to eliminate as much resonance as possible to get closer to the record. But that's more an argument from fundamentals rather than ears.
Sooo, the local dealer has a pre-owned Gyro for an amazingly good price in. Gonna go check it out later this week in order to ask questions about age, model, etc. Are there definite things to keep in mind? Type of motor seems to be the most important aspect to verify. The dealer has mounted a new Rega RB330 arm on it, which is not my main preference, so I'll ask whether the arm supplied is negotiable. If not, I'll take it as-is, sell the Rega and get a better tonearm to do the TT justice. However, this brings me to the perenial question about Michell decks: which arm to go for? So far, I'm debating a list of: - Michell TecnoArm - Audiomods Series V - Jelco SA-750D - SME 309, which is more than double / triple the price of the other contenders. Thoughts and advice are very appreciated.
Out of those I would say SME 309 with Audiomods a close second if you can't afford. An alternative which may equal the SME for less is the Audio Note Arm 1/2/3.
