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Micro scratches with Sleeve city diskkeeper

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by 12" 45rpm, Mar 2, 2017.

  1. Old Zorki II

    Old Zorki II Storm Watcher

    Location:
    near Tampa, FL
    The only scraches I have seen are from the cheapest old paper sleeves..
    I think we are entering realm of uber anal retentive vinyl audiophilia, where nothing but storing records in vacuum, levitating by some sort of antigraviational force will suffice.
    And even in this case we would hear about some defects caused by dark energy particles of sorts.
     
    mikemoon, Bradd, ggergm and 10 others like this.
  2. loudinny

    loudinny Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northeast
    Lmao

    Yup, not rocket science, just a little common sense / care & vinyl will last a lifetime without worry.
     
  3. richbdd01

    richbdd01 Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    Surely the ones who buy these overpriced ‘audiophile sleeves’ are more entering the realm of Uber anal retentive vinyl audiophilia? :shh:

    I’m the guy saying these sleeves are really not worth the extra cost and do more harm than the cheaper poly sleeves....go figure!
     
  4. GeraldB

    GeraldB Forum Resident

    My concern with the polylined-paper sleeves is the possibility of glue leaching, as found on several of the AP Fantasy Jazz series titles I have from a while back. Sure that was a problem with a particular batch, but what prevents that from happening again? (It takes a while for the damage to show up, so it might not be detected until many records had been damaged.)

    The marks left by those sleeves are audible, so even if the rice paper sleeves do cause microscratches (which I haven't noticed but will check some of mine this week), if they are inaudible, I'm inclined to stick with the latter. Still, I'm a little torn.

    Based on many positive comments about the Diskeeper Ultimates, I was just about to order several hundred, but now I'd like to hear some more comments before making that commitment. I'll have to read up on which suppliers are recommended for polylined sleeves, if I go that way. Or I may splurge and try the MA sleeves — if that's the only safe route.
     
  5. Old Zorki II

    Old Zorki II Storm Watcher

    Location:
    near Tampa, FL
    Probably... I guess you did not get self-directed humor in my message...
     
    richbdd01 likes this.
  6. Just Walking

    Just Walking Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    F1nut and bru87tr like this.
  7. GeraldB

    GeraldB Forum Resident

    Under florescent, incandescent or natural light (even bright), the records usually look perfect. But under the halogen light at my cleaning station and the LED light by my turntable, the scratches show up clear as day. (This is with Mofi sleeves for me. I was about to try the Diskeeper Ultimates, but it sounds like they aren't going to be much better.)

    I handle my records as others have mentioned: open the sleeve, reach in and support by the label and edge, and I destat and blow off dust before and after play. Also, the scratches I see tend to be several parallel lines, in random patterns (not straight lines), so I don't think it's from dust on the record, or occurring primarily during the insertion and removal. My guess (as I haven't, and probably won't do any rigorous testing) is that it's from the sleeve sliding around when inserting it into the jacket. Since they don't keep their shape, and tend to bunch up a bit (even with the jacket bowed during insertion), I think the parallel lines are from the edges of the where the sleeve bunches up. If you're in the camp that keeps your records outside the sleeve, maybe you would have fewer issues. (I just like the protection and being able to view the back cover. But maybe I'll change my ways after this.)

    I wonder if these sleeves are really meant to be used with the jacket inserts that MFSL records come with; they would help prevent bunching and keep the sleeve from shifting. Unfortunately, they don't sell them separately. I'm planning to try the Bags Unlimited jacket inserts, which are supposedly similar, however they seem a little overpriced for what they are. I haven't found any alternatives, though. (Ideas, anyone?)
     
  8. Old Zorki II

    Old Zorki II Storm Watcher

    Location:
    near Tampa, FL
    Well, it is a serious investigation you undertaking...
    Please take no offense, but I remember an old joke:
    An old lady complains to building management, that from her apartment she can see men shower room, and it is disgusting to see nudity, and she needs new apts.
    So management came in, looked into window and see nothing.
    "Well, we cannot see anything"
    "You should come to my bedroom" she answered.
    OK, they looked into her bedroom window and still could not see any naked men.
    "Well" she said, "but you have to climb on top of the bookshelf to see this...."

    Anyway, not that I am disagreeing with your finding, I just wonder if those scuffs are
    1. from sleeves and not from something else
    2. really affect the sound in any way.
    I know a lot of serious collectors who are fine with those "rice paper" sleeves. Are they putting priceless records in danger?
     
    Gumboo likes this.
  9. GeraldB

    GeraldB Forum Resident

    That's why I'm just suggesting others have a look under different light sources. I used these sleeves for 2 years without picking up on the issue. I did see some microscratches on new vinyl from MFSL, Music Matters and AP, and had put it down to the pressing plant (all RTI, save for recent APs). But I recently tested with some other new records and those that had no marks before putting them in the Mofi picked up some light scratches after one trip into the jacket and out.

    All my new vinyl goes straight on the Okki Nokki, then into a fresh sleeve, and is scrutinized before and after under a halogen lamp (that shows all the marks and dust that I don't see under other light sources). All I know is that these records came off the RCM without scratches and came out of the sleeve for first play with scratches.

    These scratches are, as far as I can tell, largely inaudible, at least initially. Maybe they always will be. But it's hard to say if that will still be the case if the scratches continue to build up over time. I don't feel like we have enough data at this point, if it's true that the production changed sometime in the last few years (after, or perhaps before, "powdergate").

    I'm not in a panic about this and I'm not going to go through and replace all the sleeves I have overnight, but I'm going to test a couple of alternatives (some poly sleeves and the MA Recordings ones) and if I find something that doesn't mark my records, then I'd prefer that. That's all.
     
    richbdd01, Old Zorki II and CBackley like this.
  10. eddiel

    eddiel Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Polylined-paper - I had a similar issue with a Doors Boxset. I went to sell it and found that there was fogging on the records and each spot was essentially where there was glue between the poly and the paper. The spots weren't audible but I could've caught before it was made worse. So, I'm wary of using those sleeves. I also had about 30 I bought locally which were dodgy.

    Diskeeper - Every think about buying them I remember how expensive the postage is! But IIRC people have commented on these sleeves leaving marks too.
     
  11. Old Zorki II

    Old Zorki II Storm Watcher

    Location:
    near Tampa, FL
    BTW, I just opened new MFSL record, in their sleeve and cardboard "inside cover" - and low and behold there were serious scuff marks! No one is safe ((.
    But the sound was spectacular (Lynyrd Skynyrd "Pronounced") and those scuffs never manifested themselves when record was played...
     
  12. Mike from NYC

    Mike from NYC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Surprise, AZ
    Never had a problem and I have at least 2000 LPs in their sleeves with some LPs removed and replaced many many times.
     
    RTurner likes this.
  13. GeraldB

    GeraldB Forum Resident

    FWIW, I located the Diskeeper Ultimate sample I got back in October (I had forgotten which album I used it on) and performed the same handling and rubbing tests (e.g., gently sliding the sleeve on the runout area of the record in the sleeve) that left microscratches with the Mofi inners.

    I am pleasantly surprised to report that I saw no marks with the Ultimates! Even upping the pressure, I didn't see any microscratches. I'm still a little leery about this type of sleeve, but I might try a batch after all. However, I recently got a sample inner from MA Recordings and I think that's probably what I'll try first. It would be nice to be able to see labels through the sleeve, though — an advantage of the DK Ultimates.
     
  14. aphexacid

    aphexacid It’s not Hip Hop, it’s Electro.

    Location:
    Illinois
    I’ve only ever used the Diskeeper Ultimate sleeves, pricier but man they feel so much better. Ive never had any problems. I don’t have a whole lot of records though, maybe 250 or so.
     
    Stone Turntable likes this.
  15. Stormcooper

    Stormcooper New Member

    Location:
    Houston, TX
    I started buying Diskeeper sleeves in November of 2019, and having used almost 200 now, I am seeing these same types of micro scratches. Many of my records are brand new, only played 1 to 3 times, and pristine before placed into these sleeves. Here is a perfect example, and one of many. I also use MFSL and Invest in Vinyl sleeves with other records, and I've never seen anything like this from either of the other two sleeves. I've contacted Sleeve City, and await their response, but regardless... I am done with these sleeves.

    [​IMG]
     
  16. eddiel

    eddiel Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    @Stormcooper That's brutal. Interesting you mention MFSL because there are threads on this forum discussing the same issue with MFSL.


    I've never been able to replicate it outside of extreme conditions i.e. putting pressure on the sleeve when extracting the record.
     
  17. Phil Thien

    Phil Thien Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Yikes! That would make me pretty upset.
     
    Larry Loves LPs likes this.
  18. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    I was just re-reading this thread puzzling about why my records aren't scratched with Diskeeper 2.0 sleeves, and I just realized - I'm doing exactly the same thing you describe here. I'm not sliding the LP out against the inner sleeve so it's very unlikely that it will scratch the LP. :righton:
     
  19. Phil Thien

    Phil Thien Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    But the fact remains, people have changed products (to MFSL) and not had experienced the problem, without changing their behavior.

    So it seems like ditching the Diskeeper sleeves for MFSL or another brand which hasn't demonstrated the problem, would be worthwhile.
     
  20. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Yeah, but I didn't change my behavior, I've always gently pulled the LP out of the sleeve and not just let it slide out. I'm happy to realize I don't have to trash a few hundred sleeves and replace them.
     
  21. Phil Thien

    Phil Thien Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    At the cost of sleeves vs albums I'd be replacing but to each his own.
     
  22. Just Walking

    Just Walking Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    I buy quite a bit of vinyl from estate sales, and before I play them I put them through the cleaner (ultrasonic, or if very mucky through an alcohol based vacuum cleaner then ultrasonic), and when dry put them in a MoFi sleeve. Had zero problem with MoFi sleeves - the Library of Congress vinyl archives use them, and that is good enough for me.
     
  23. Vinyl Archaeologist

    Vinyl Archaeologist Forum Resident

    There are a number of threads on this. MFSL and Diskeeper can leave hairlines - especially if records are slid in and out. Not as bad as paper though. I did a test with a bunch of types and paper are the worst and Goldring Ex-static are the best. MFSL and disckeeper can scratch - but shouldn’t if you put the rice paper side up and insert your hand on the underside and gently pull the remove. (The rice paper side doesn’t cling and this clinging is what seem to cause the hairlines.)
     
    richbdd01 likes this.
  24. Just Walking

    Just Walking Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    But are these hairlines *audible*?
     
    Vinyl Archaeologist likes this.
  25. Barnabas Collins

    Barnabas Collins Senior Member

    Location:
    NH
    Not the abrasions I had from both brands. That's the only good news. They look ugly, but I couldn't hear any real degradation in sound quality. Some of my records I've had for 40 years-most of my life-and they have nary a hairline on them. But in buying brand new vinyl in recent years and storing them in Diskkeeper sleeves, they look exactly like the photo posted by Stormcooper.
     
    Vinyl Archaeologist likes this.

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