Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by 12" 45rpm, Mar 2, 2017.
So, it sounds like Mofi are the ones to buy.
Anybody ever think it might be dust on records that is causing these scratches, not the sleeve itself? The sleeves themselves don't have any abrasive elements, at least none that I've ever seen, and that's from all manufacturers. (Anybody else remember a nearly identical thread maybe two years ago where it was MoFi sleeves that had this problem and Sleeve City ones were the good sleeves?) If there is dust on a record when put back in its sleeve, and even in a very clean house, dust will get on records, that could be abrasive enough to cause scratches.
Otherwise I see this whole discussion as taking audiophile anality? analness? analgazing? to a new low.
Those were my thoughts exactly until i tried some tests for myself. I very carefully cleaned the records and the MOFI sleeves do leave tiny scratches all over the LP. I'm sure you can look up the results i got but the gist is handle your records carfully and Goldring Ex-static are the best and raw paper are the worst. Mofi are fine just don't whip the records in and out and then look at them under a 200w halogen.
In my opinion, MFSL also have the same problem. I had some records in MFSL sleeves and all have the same type of hairlines... :/
Now I use regular polylined sleeves and they work perfect.
Thank you for your reply.
I guess I'm lucky. I have a lot of problems to deal with - we all do right now - but this isn't one of them. I've been collecting records since I was in high school. I've never lost my collection. It's up to about 5,000 pieces, which I'm constantly culling because I refuse to buy any more record racks. About a quarter of those records have been replaced in the last eight years. I've been using specialty sleeves since the early 1970s, and specifically various rice paper types for over 40 years, starting with Discwasher VRP sleeves and trying whatever has come down the pike. Sure, I've experienced bad runs and regrettable purchases, and I don't have 200w halogen lights, but I do have many east facing windows in my living room, where the hi-fi has always been, and a morning sun that is both wonderfully warm and blinding. I have never seen what you and others are experiencing. I run a clean house in a rural area. Maybe that's the difference. Who knows? I've just never seen quality inner sleeves from any manufacturer causing scratches, large or small, on my records. Obviously, YMMV.
Diskeeper Ultimate for me. The perfect inner sleeve.
I use the MoFis and haven’t experienced any issues and don’t plan to change. Sometimes these kinds of discussions can drive you crazy because you start to think: OMG, is this going to happen to me too? Should I change too, and you become consumed by self doubt. If you’re happy with something, stick with it.
The "solid incriminating evidence" are the very solid and incriminating bumps and lumps that are easily felt when running your fingers over a standard Sleeve City sleeve. I've stopped buying them. It's annoying that the allegedly anti-static sleeves come out of the package stuck together because: static.
I have some Diskeeper Ultimate but mostly MoFi in my collection, and I do not have this problem with either of them.
Yeah using MOFI and getting no scratches.
That would probably cause the marks...I wonder if this is down to bad batches or a chance in manufacturers or methods? I expect that at some point that wasn't an issue.
I use these only. Never a problem.
I've had no problem with the Diskeeper sleeves. Sleeve City's audiophile sleeve, a Mofi equivalent is the better sleeve. I have found the mo-fi type sleeves are truly anti-static. Others may or may not be, even when advertised as anti-static. I have one batch of diskeepers that's very staticky, another batch is good!
I think the problem with micro-scratches/ sleeve scuffs is more related to improper record handling. I've seen this a lot on You Tube collector features, on how the record slips out, and back into the sleeve.
The sleeve should never rub against the record.... never... never!! This is one of the most important practices in proper handling, however some audiophiles are not aware, or refuse to do this the right way! If the record has been cleaned, and placed in a new sleeve, we reduce the chance of sleeve scuffs. In the real world, there will be micro-dust, and visible dust, and when dragged across the record will leave micro-scratches. (sleeve scuffs)
So, how does one stop sleeve scuffs? Reach inside the sleeve which opens it. Remove a record from an opened sleeve.... not in contact on the record surface. Use the standard record handling technique, two middle fingers on label, and the record edge at the base of the thumb. I prefer gravity assist by holding the record and sleeve near vertical, so that weight of the record is safely in the web of my thumb, and "falls" out of the sleeve. To insert, allow the (opened) sleeve to "fall" on the record. The hand will also go inside the sleeve, using the standard hold on the record. This is so much habit, that I don't need to think about it. This may require some practice, but really isn't difficult. I have never dropped a record. My records do not have sleeve scuffs, or if previously owned, no additional sleeve scuffs.
BTW on the back of the cover of some old Columbia LP's is a diagram on how to insert a record into the cover. (see diagram #2) A person is shown with the cover lower edge against the body, an one hand on the top edge... so I mention this not for storing the record, but for easier insertion of the inner sleeve. Diagram #3 about using a damp cloth isn't good advice. Point #1 doesn't show how to handle a record one-handed... Of course after all, it's better to store the record outside of the cover in an outer poly sleeve. Just wanted to mention this, as Columbia had the right idea, sort of!
As near as I can tell these slight abrasions caused by sliding the inner sleeve over the vinyl surface are very superficial and are contained on the upper surface of the vinyl and do not penetrate to any significant depth. The surface sheen of a newly pressed vinyl record is extremely delicate and it is the surface sheen that is being impacted by the inner sleeve sliding over it. I believe that one would have to make a consecrated effort to do in the groove damage with an inner sleeve. Thus I think that any cosmetic damage done by a poly inner sleeve is not going to be audible.
I do think that "dust" can be a source of deeper scratches that are audible. If dust particles of sufficient size and hardness are trapped on the record or on the inside of the inner sleeve and the record is drawn out of (or inserted in to) the sleeve in a manner that scrapes the dust particle against the vinyl then IMHO it would be possible to scratch the record deep enough that it would cause audible damage.
I used MoFi sleeves exclusively for several years, before discovering this issue. I put an LED lamp by my turntable and I began to see light scratches (often in a rainbow pattern) on virtually every record I placed in one, even if only cleaned and sleeved once. Halogen bulbs work, too. (But not sunlight, no matter how bright! And not fluorescents, IME.)
I don't think it has much to do with dirt, unless it is in new sleeves, as all my records get wet cleaned and vacuumed before being put in a new sleeve. I also see the same marks on brand new records from MoFi.
Since switching to MA Recordings sleeves – zero marks. I'm very happy and will be replacing all my MoFi sleeves with these over time.
I also have had no problems with poly-lined paper, and I'd prefer those if only for the greater rigidity, but I have had some records come with marks from the seam being pressed into the vinyl by overtight jackets, and a few from AP where glue from the sleeve leached into the vinyl and can have audible effects, so I just don't feel confident in them in the long term. For now, I'll stick with the MAs for stuff I care about.
I do the buckle thing...slightly.
I will be trying the Mofi sleeves because Sleeve City is shut down and won't be shipping anything until April 27th and Amazon did not have them in stock and did not know when they'd be back in stock. I need sleeves now.
This thing about improper handling is absolute rubbish. You cannot achieve zero contact. It’s near impossible.
Plus the sleeves have ‘anti-scratching’ on them so minor rubbing should not cause hairlines. Since switching to regular poly lined sleeves...guess what? Zero hairlines. I use bog standard poly lined sleeves so what am I paying extra for the QRP and MFSL sleeves for?
Wait... you guys play your LPs more than once?
I swapped out the Diskeeper sleeves the OP posted for Diskeeper ultimate inner sleeves, because one side of the Diskeeper sleeves is super thin and didn’t strike me as offering much protection. With the Diskeeper ultimate inner sleeves, each side of the sleeve has paper sandwiched between two layers of plastic.
FWIW, I certainly do not have the time left in my life to spend time looking at the surface of my vinyl records when using a particular type of light to see if there has been a change in the vinyl surface appearance. If the effects of certain poly sleeves are only cosmetic and NOT audible I simply cannot afford to invest any time in this. Believe me when I tell you life is too short to worry about this.
Happy with the (non rice paper) disk keeper 2.0 sleeves. Score one for the budget option.
but not too short to post on this thread
I think of it as preservation. It’s as much for my kids and whoever else might end up with my records as anything else. That said I do think careful handling is the most important bit.
True! My first collection back in the 70's that I no longer have, became sleeve scuffed. Of course, these were not audible. I ended up selling my system with the records to help pay college tuition. (should've borrowed more and kept the system)
But anyway, if sleeve scuffs don't bother someone, then it's not an issue.
My personal take on this, if something is preventable, why not change the record handling regimen? Another point, the value of a record looking pristine, all else equal, vs a sleeve scuffed one that plays just as nicely.... the pristine looking record will be the preferred record to own. At a record shop, would a shopper choose the NM sleeve scuffed record (everything else equal) or the record that looks like the day it was pressed?
"This matrix sounds terrible. My god, look at those scratches!"
Any "particulate" feeling I've had across the Diskeeper Ultimate inners has been a tacky or "sandy" crazy-colored vinyl that came that way from the factory. Of course y'all have me paranoid now too, but plenty of brand new records come out of the jacket with those hairlines from the static coupled with the paper sleeve when we rush to pull them out for a spin*.
*A long hard looking-at before storing it away in the "new" pile, or the "to clean" pile before forgetting we bought it after about six months even though it was been sleeved and then we finally catch sight of it in our shelf again and decide to play it realizing halfway through that you don't quite like it much and that you should probably get out and run the errands you planned to run today.
With poly lined paper you can. Harder with these and MFSL equivalents.
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