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Micro scratches with Sleeve city diskkeeper

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by 12" 45rpm, Mar 2, 2017.

  1. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    City of Angels
    This is where I've been ordering from for 15 years (diff owners in last 5)
    Far West Record Supply «
    this is the thin rice paper:
    Far West Record Supply « Products «
    • 12″ POLYETHYLENE “RICE PAPER” INNER 100 16.50
      Round bottoms, 1 MIL
     
    CBackley and elvisizer like this.
  2. elvisizer

    elvisizer Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Jose
    price is right, I might check out some of those rice paper ones
     
  3. richbdd01

    richbdd01 Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    Exactly my experience...the QRP sleeves are a little worse than the Mofi sleeves for leaving hairline scratches. A standard poly lined sleeve is all that you need...
     
  4. richbdd01

    richbdd01 Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    Actually I’m worse, I set mine on fire immediately after purchase and then launch them across the garden! It’s a lot of fun but it does leave the odd skip!
     
  5. mikemoon

    mikemoon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    I try to take maximize the care of my vinyl purchases but this thread is a bit concerning. This could get OCD very quickly.

    First, how many records come out of the factoring 100% mint according to this micro-abrasion theory?

    Are your cleaning brushes, solvents, etc. also doing harm? What to do here if so?

    What about the sleeve they are using before-hand? You are lucky if they aren't using regular paper sleeves or card stock.

    Do we really think audiophile companies like Mofi or Acoustic Sounds are using inferior sleeves that scratch the records?

    Are the Ultimate Audiophile Sleeves from Sleeve City doing the ultimate harm?

    I have used a mix of paper poly sleeves, Mofi, QRP and Ultimate Audiophile. I don't look for micro-abrasions though, I guess it would be maddening.

    Admittedly, this causes some minor worry but I'm 1,500 in the game. Am I going to replace every sleeve?

    I do not use paper sleeves and I try to be careful with my records. If it comes with an upgraded sleeve I use it, if not I replace it. Seems irresponsible to just toss all these things in the garbage.

    The thing I try to do most is enjoying listening to my records with care. In saying that I did save some of the sleeves with the rounded bottom, I personally hate using them though. I only keep them in the Japanese vinyl I have but they can crumble way too easily.
     
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  6. mikemoon

    mikemoon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Are you just using the regular paper poly sleeves like these?

    12" Vinyl Inner Sleeves (100 Pack)
     
  7. richbdd01

    richbdd01 Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    mikemoon likes this.
  8. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    City of Angels
    They are the ones that don't scratch your records, nor fog up and ruin Lps. Been using the same source for many many years.

    Shipping and tax adds a little but still, the best is sometimes the cheapest!
     
    CBackley likes this.
  9. mikemoon

    mikemoon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Those are the ones I started with 10 years ago when I got into vinyl with the first lps I bought and started replacing sleeves. They've always seemed pretty good. I still keep them when they come with a new lp.

    I then moved on to Mofi sleeves thinking they were supposed to be the best. I just never liked how flimsy they were so I stopped buying them but still keep them on Mofi lps, same for QRP lps.

    The only audiophile sleeve I replace is Music Matters, Tone Poets type as the harder plastic has always worried me about leaving abrasions. I figured I might be overreacting but I still replaced them.

    I moved on to the Ultimate Audiophile Sleeve thinking it would be the end all. Then I stumble across this thread.

    Some are saying the paper poly like you mention (the most reasonable), others are mentioning the Japanese with rounded bottoms (imported?) and then I'm hearing the fancier MA sleeve.

    I'm guessing Sleeve City might be going out of business after this thread?!
     
    CBackley, nomad709, quicksrt and 2 others like this.
  10. elvisizer

    elvisizer Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Jose
    heh neither do the ones i currently use! yours are the same except for the material and they're a bit cheaper than what I have been paying so why not give them a try
     
  11. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    City of Angels
    I'd like to know too. Your's could be nicer, or softer, or whatever. Please order and let us know.
     
  12. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    City of Angels
    Are MM the ones that are light pink and waxy feeling? Those are foggers if they are what I think.

    I spend an evening (for a friend) replacing all of them into Japan rounded bottom rice. And some of the Blue notes had begun to fog up. But I think we caught them in time.
     
  13. elvisizer

    elvisizer Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Jose
    actually, I'm wondering if they might be the same product? I didn't notice that the listing you linked to says they're polyethylene, that's what mine are as well. I thought these other ones were actually rice paper o_O Anyway still going to order some from far west to compare.
     
  14. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    City of Angels
    I ordered some from Amazon that looked exactly them the ones from Far West not very long ago just to see if there was another source that was a few cents cheaper. They were not the exact same thing. They were a slightly thicker type sleeve and not rice paper feel.
     
  15. mikemoon

    mikemoon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    The older ones were pink. They replaced them with a clear that doesn't have the same issue I think.

    Oddly enough, I think I remember Joe Harley saying that he doesn't change them out. IIRC.
     
  16. mikemoon

    mikemoon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Interesting analogy. I ran into this issue when I purchased my car brand new black paint. I got online and researched and ended up investing a little over $100 on cleaning supplies (2 bucket wash).

    I later thought to myself, I'm worried about swirl marks on a car that is going to be driving down the interstate with all kinds of foreign matter and other $H!+ flying at it. Also, it will either spend seasons covered in snow, baked in sun or plastered in pollen.

    I took I step back and decided to treat it like a normal car. I have enjoyed it more ever since.
     
    GLENN and Stone Turntable like this.
  17. nomad709

    nomad709 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    USA
    Hmm okay.

    I understand the enjoyment of music is the main reason for vinyl record collecting but it's a bit frustrating seeing your investment covered in ton of micro abrasions/ scratches that did not had to be there if only some other thin poly sleeve was used. It's disappointing to buy these expensive records not to mention the rare ones and then add a bunch of micro scratches to them by simply using a sleeve that was meant to protect them.

    I learned to handle my records, clean them properly, store them properly, and keep everything organized and clean where I play them. I took the time to learn to keep my investment pristine. Learning that these sleeves have created these flaws as miniscule as they may seem to some has been a learning experience for me and will discontinue to use them.
     
    mikemoon likes this.
  18. mikemoon

    mikemoon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    I'm also in the camp of "life is too short" and too enjoyable to get too caught up and occupied by this but I am taking notes for future sleeve orders and it leaves me thinking about a few things:

    1. Like you, I do like the QRP sleeves and I was going to convert to these possibly anyways. I've had the 250 count in my cart for a while. This in limbo.
    2. As far as paper poly, I do really like the black shell ones that also have the corner cuts and bottom ventilation. It seems most of these come with EU pressed audiophile vinyl. I would love to find an affordable supplier here.
    3. The white paper poly is the most affordable option moving forward. I may just order these with one of my next record orders.
    4. The MA sleeves look nice but I think rigidity is important if you store your records inside the jacket. Do you store them this way or outside?
    5. The Japanese Round sleeves are just to big of a PITA to deal with personally (no rigidity) but I may potentially give them another try at the right price.
    6. I'm not sure I'm going to replace all my previous sleeves (Mofi, Ultimate Audiophile, etc.) but I am going to be even more cautious in handling. I use regular lighting so minor inaudible hairlines that I can't see might just be part of the game. I'm not waxing my records.
    7. The issues that are being discussed here are for all Diskeeper Inner Sleeves? Are the Ultimate Audiophile giving the same issues? I would imagine the rigidity assists with proper handling and less issues and they seem really soft to touch.

    On a side note, I think I read a few articles by you online over 10 years ago when I was originally getting into vinyl. If that was you, they were of big assistance and thanks. I think it was about all analog modern vinyl and possibly the VPI Scout turntable but it's been a while.
     
  19. mikemoon

    mikemoon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    I get the frustration. I haven't experienced it yet but as noted, I'm taking notes.

    It only gets a bit strange when all the main "audiophile sleeves" cause damage. Do they all have it wrong? It makes me pause and assess the situation completely. Does it exist? Either yes or very likely. To what degree does it exist? To be determined and I will make necessary adjustments.

    What I saw what was on his record it looked extreme and would cause caution moving forward for myself included.

    I try to keep my records pristine. It is an investment into our enjoyment of music! I don't sit around and inspect them under certain extra strength light bulbs. I use "regular" light I guess.

    How would a person who does this buy from a regular used record store?

    Also, many of these new records come from the factory with hairlines. There is literally a machine shoving the records into the sleeves and/or someone inspecting it who really isn't going to be as careful as the seasoned owner. I used to notice this on some of the RTI plastic sleeves too often.

    Do we return all records from the factory with these micro-abrasions already on the album?

    I will say this is a learning experience for me too. I doubt I buy anything else from Sleeve City but I was already thinking of moving on from them.

    Now is I'm considering the paper poly sleeve but some are saying there may be glue issues. Or QRP but these may also have issues. MA has no rigidity which is important, same for the Japanese round bottom.
     
  20. nomad709

    nomad709 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    USA
    Regardless of noticing them or not I was able to confirm micro scratches were indeed being produced by these sleeves by testing on a mint record. Now I don't mean to isolate a certain manufacturer since there are others that produce thick abrasive poly sleeves so I feel safe to say that 1 mil or less soft HDPE poly would be the best for me.

    I will now avoid more rigid thicker 2 mil poly sleeves for my records. My plan is to buy Japanese rounded bottom 1 mil sleeves and may insert them in simple paper sleeves if more rigidness is desired.
     
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  21. mikemoon

    mikemoon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    This idea isn't a bad alternative for added rigidity if needed. I've actually done the same in the past with some Mofi, etc. to add some rigidity or if they came with a nice printed inner sleeve.

    But why not the paper poly sleeves? Best of both worlds right?
     
    nomad709 likes this.
  22. Stone Turntable

    Stone Turntable Dedicated Listener

    Location:
    New Mexico USA
    All joking aside, of course this is a valid topic and a valid concern, but my feeling is that storing vinyl in a clean protective sleeve that keeps dust away and doesn’t let audible scratches or gritty paper affect play is a 99% positive step. If the 1% menace of micro-scratches is on your mind even though it’s not entering your ears, my concern is that you’re snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

    It probably makes a difference that I don’t view my vinyl as an investment and I’ve never sold a record. But I love the Diskeeper Ultimate Audiophile sleeves I’ve been using for a while now.
     
  23. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    City of Angels
    1. It depends on the poly used in that paper / poly sleeve. It can be the fogging type, and you only find this out in several years later. Some of these types use the rice paper, not (the dangerous) plastic poly.
    2. If you have hundreds of LPs to put into new inner sleeves after cleaning, cost can be a factor, you want a low cost solution if buying hundreds of sleeves.
    3. If you have hundreds or thousands of LPs to do, space becomes an issue, the paper / poly combos take up more space than the Japan rice paper / rounded bottoms.
    4. I've never seen a fogged LP come out of a rice paper rounded bottom sleeve even after 30 years.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
    mikemoon and nomad709 like this.
  24. richbdd01

    richbdd01 Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    For those asking what sleeves to use, a standard poly is fine. What I haven’t mentioned is that when I use a different inner sleeve for the first time, I have no idea how it’s going to perform and how abrasive the inner material is. I therefore usually test a sleeve (on a relatively common/cheaper pressing) now prior to using the whole batch on my records. This way I can see how it reacts with the vinyl when slight rubbing occurs.

    I bought sleeves previously from another manufacturer and they also made marks. These weren’t scuffs or hairlines but more like strange marks from the plastic. I immediately stopped using them and I am now adopting this new approach. However, the sounds wholesale sleeves I use off eBay have been largely perfect. I have resleeves all my MFSL and QRP pressings and no more hairlines or so much as a mark anywhere. I have no affiliation with them and would suggest a similarly priced alternative could be found. The MA sleeves also look better quality but I’m not sure they offer any advantage and you could pick up alternatives to the sounds wholesale sleeve that would be the same sort of manufacturing etc. Again, I would just suggest testing all your sleeves when you use them the first time. You don’t want to be putting your valuable records in something that you have no idea whether the quality is sufficient.
     
    mikemoon likes this.
  25. mikemoon

    mikemoon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Same here, the main investment is the joy of music and listening.
     

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