Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab has been cutting vinyl from digital since a long, long time ago...

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Ben Adams, Jul 14, 2022.

  1. bbanderic

    bbanderic Forum Resident

    We're talking about vinyl here, analog sourced Original Master Recording = AAA. MoFi lovers, stop trying to rewrite history and pretend like that was never the meaning.
     
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  2. brimuchmuze

    brimuchmuze Forum Resident

    So, parse this announcement from UMe on Steely Dan:

    "STEELY DAN'S CLASSIC ABC & MCA RECORDS CATALOG TO BE REMASTERED FROM ORIGINAL TAPES AND REISSUED ON 180-GRAM BLACK VINYL VIA UMe"

    AAA? No.

    Original tapes? Yes (mostly)

    Using the Original Tapes says zero about the process.
     
  3. bbanderic

    bbanderic Forum Resident

    We're talking about MoFi, their whole mission statement since day 1 that was supposed to set them apart from the major labels...analog Original Master Recording = AAA. Again, stop trying to rewrite history.
     
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  4. spencer1

    spencer1 Great Western Forum Resident

    The ole "but look what they did" defense never really works.
     
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  5. riverrat

    riverrat Senior Member

    Location:
    Oregon
    Off topic, but the main topic has been to death several times over, and has seemingly devolved into bickering so I'll derail for at least one post..

    I just ordered THIS LP which has the same barcode and details seem to match up with the KPG version.
    Ordering from moviemars is obviously not a sure bet, and it does say "CD" as well as "Gold Vinyl" in the description, but I gambled anyway.
    I don't see any other pressings this could be, but if it's not the KPG I will just return it.
     
  6. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    I don't have the compilation but a couple old copies- one with Spill the Wine and the other War-World is a Ghetto. Both were "bin" cheapies (used records sold for whatever back in the day- 4 or 5 bucks?) I tend to look for very clean copies and do a rigorous cleaning here. Both sounded great to my recollection, though it has been a while. Is the compilation desirable mainly b/c of Kevin Gray? No agenda, just asking. Thanks- you and others who talked about this record in this thread.
    regards,
     
  7. riverrat

    riverrat Senior Member

    Location:
    Oregon
    Well, I came of age in the 60s and 70s, so grew up hearing War tunes on the radio. But I was more of a Stones/Zeppelin/Who person and never bought any of War's albums back in the day. Recently picked up a couple (All Day Music and World is a Ghetto) at my local record store, liked them, then read about this apparently stellar sounding compilation. So I ordered it. I guess I'll find out if its the KPG.
     
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  8. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    As to the whole contretemps of "getting it" on the misrepresentations (or not), I don't see this as a very complicated thing.
    OMR-MoFi said after the "reveal" (the Esposito interview which aired July 20) that they would be providing definitions for the terms they use to avoid misunderstanding. I haven't checked their site recently to see if that got added. In plain language it would, to me, mean they use the original master tape to make the album, not a copy tape.
    Whether that's true, was once true, or never true I have no idea.
    They showed the process in a diagram (at least the One Step diagram, but also the diagram for the MoFis that are not "one steps") of a drawing of a reel of tape (that's what that looks like to me) going to the convert or lacquer. That certainly overtly suggests to me that their "process" was tape to lacquer/metal parts. An intervening "step" was added to include a reference to "DSD" below the tape reel in corrected material now on the web. I believe I read here that some MoFi product shipped without the normal heavy inserts- suggesting that they were printing new inserts for the record packaging to conform to the corrected diagrams on the MoFi website. They are apparently adding "hype" stickers to shipped product that show the DSD "step."
    There were some even more overt misrepresentations- some customer service folks (who were likely in the dark as far as I'm concerned but that's the responsibility of their employer) "saying all analog" "no digital unless the original album was digitally recorded." I gather there were messages (I saw only one) salvaged on Facebook before MoFi wiped their page saying essentially the same thing. There was the Shawn Britton video interview from 2017 saying "all analog mastering chain."
    What does that mean? That a digital file (or DSD copy of the master tape) was used as the source, but after that, everything else is analog? If that's the charitable interpretation in MoFi's favor, to me (and I was a NYC based IP lawyer for more that 35 years but don't take my word for the law), that's pretty misleading as a practical, not a legal matter, no? If your gut or brain says "nah, that's ok," I have no need to condemn you or "bully" you into believing otherwise. You don't think it "tends to deceive," which is one formulation of the standard.
    In fact, if one were to parse this closely, if OMR means what it may mean- that MoFi only used the "true" mixed down master for these records, that's wrong too- because they used a digital copy, not that tape. But, I don't need to go that far in light of the above.
    MoFi essentially admitted to a lot of this when they apologized for allowing false narratives to propagate. I am of the conclusion that they were the principal propagators of the so-called "false narrative." That MoFi is taking remedial steps is good; as to the relevance or admissibility of same to show culpability, I'll leave that for the active trial lawyers to figure out.
    There is no question that MoFi/Music Direct top boss Jim Davis said he was unhappy with how the "news" broke, claiming that he wasn't alerted to the video/Three Engineers meeting in time to arrive beforehand and attend. That meeting, which Esposito captured on video on July 19 and posted to YouTube on July 20 was arranged by John Wood of MoFi, without the apparent approval of the boss, Jim Davis, who according to The Washington Post (yes, it did get mainstream coverage, Billboard- industry and Rolling Stone- mainstream industry?) said John Wood "broke down" and Davis "did not appreciate the interview."(the Three Engineers interview done by Esposito on July 19).
    Since then, aside from a few attempts in smaller online journals, various discussions about the subject on YouTube (which I stopped watching at a certain point) and a few very shallow attempts by the legacy audio press to "cover" for MoFi, including J. Valin's absurd statement that we owe it to MoFi to buy their records, there have been few new developments. A fourth case was filed a week ago. MoFi has provided provenance for what I gather are its current releases, new pre-orders, perhaps some material that is out of stock but is supposed to be re-pressed but stopped at a certain point. (Not exactly sure what the cut off date is or why other than not creating more of a record but that's speculation on my part).
    Is the company in crisis? I have no idea. I think they managed this poorly and as we said many hundreds of pages ago (props to @Stone Turntable for the point), what if the "other path, not taken" had been pursued? Namely, when MoFi offered Abraxas- low production numbers, relatively low risk, they unveiled their process. That path was not taken. Was that just an oversight? Was it something that happened incrementally in the greater use of DSD, to the point where it got pretty uncomfortable to "break that news" after a certain point? Were MoFi (however unrealistically) hoping to keep the DSD step under wraps from consumers? I have no idea.
    I do think they knew they could take a PR hit for it, but can't think of a worse way this could have happened-- they got called out on it by someone who isn't part of the "audiophile press" and he got the interview on tape of the Three Engineers. After that, it was all corrective steps and a legalistic apology followed by a softball interview of Jim Davis in TAS.
    If this DSD step really was that much better than a 1:1 tape transfer, why didn't MoFi come clean early in the game? Probably because people expected analog.
    But, that's all subject to proof.
    There is a court of public opinion and the SH Forum has a lot of really smart people, some of whom are part of the industry or can comment on it meaningfully.
    There is also the court of law. Maybe MoFi will get all the cases dismissed easily. I have no idea and am not taking a position on the merits of any of the cases.
    But those are the essential facts as I understand them. I have no axe to grind since I'm not a big buyer of MoFi product; I did have a fair amount of the old Stan Ricker catalog. I am concerned about integrity in the sale of expensive records on false premises, and just as concerned that our legacy press has failed us in favor of its advertisers. But, that's my perspective on this, which you do not have to share.
    No legal advice intended.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2022
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  9. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    I think because it specifically says “remastered from original tapes” you’re good. Frustrating they mostly use stock footage pictures. Would be nice to see the RSD sticker but since it’s gold vinyl that should be the right one. You’ll love it and you got a great price.
     
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  10. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    You must have found the same mastered copy that I have because most sound pretty bad. You know, I compared it tonight to the new one and they are awfully close, which is high praise. But the new one is dead quiet, well pressed. Way to go Rhino! I hope they will keep using Kevin. It’s a shame they don’t put his name on the cover or hype sticker. I would by more standard label releases if I knew that. Had I not read in this forum Kevin mastered it I never would have bought it.
     
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  11. COBill

    COBill Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    I wish I were, than I wouldn't have to spend so much on MoFi LPs. :laugh:

    Brothers in Arms?
    The Nightfly?

    Do digital masters not get to be called original somehow?
     
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  12. COBill

    COBill Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    Since you won't let this go:

    Said by an employee; if a worker on the line on Chevy says something about their cars, that's not an official statement, and if this was such a key selling factor, it would have been stated all over their products and web site.

    It never has been at least since the last bankruptcy.

    I don't know the origin, and can't comment on that directly, but obviously it is not. Again, who made the comment and where?

    There is a discrepancy here, but it depends upon who said it in what context. Was it an official statement or yet again another obscure interview with an employee or contractor?

    How is this a lie? They did allow false narratives to propagate, like the assumption that all their products were 100% analog.

    Did they really say "nobody" or is that your summary of statements made? Obviously some studios allow the use of analog masters.

    Whom other than their own entities has Sony allowed access to their masters that MoFi was denied access to?

    This is a matter of opinion, not a lie. I will believe that they tested making analog copies and DSD copies and they felt the DSD copies sounded superior to adding an analog generation. "Superior" is truly a judgement call here.

    So you know the tests they claim they made never, in fact took place at any point?

    So how do you overcome analog generation loss and added noise floor, even at 30 IPS? Dolby NR?

    Again, which LPs was this not true for?

    For example, Tapestry was cut from DSD64; when was that DSD copy sourced?

    Is there a need for insulting personal attacks?

    Since you state Jim Davis lied, I assume you can prove that a statement he made is false. I'm just asking here, not saying you're wrong.

    Do we know:

    • Rob was quoted accurately? Almost no media organizations can be counted on to do so.
    • Was he speaking for MoFi as a spokesman or was it a personal quote (see the Chevy employee example, above.)

    That's because they never said they were an AAA-only vinyl reissue label anywhere I've ever been able to find. I'll defend this one all day: Brothers in Arms and The Nightfly are proof they could not claim to be that without some type of qualification since at least 2015 for Original Master Recordings (Brothers) and 2017 for One Steps (Nightfly.)

    Again, insults rather than realizing different people have different standards of what constitutes a lie.

    For me, a lie has to be a conscious statement made that you know is false with the intent to deceive another party, not merely omission of information unless that omission is, again, calculated to deceive, and we don't have verifiable proof of that until the parties involved have been deposed and/or MoFi memos turn up saying "gosh those audiophiles are gullible."

    For example, if it's provable MoFi never made tests to determine whether to use 30 IPS analog copies or DSD, that is obviously a lie.

    If they did and they found DSD sounded better to them, that's not a lie, that's a difference in opinion.

    If Jim Davis said they never use digital on any title for which an analog master tape exists (rather than state that they can get access to), that's obviously a lie.

    If Jim Davis didn't force Rob LoVerde to correct his statements publicly if he was accurately quoted, that's bad business practice and poor leadership; if Rob was misquoted, failure to demand a correction from CNet was also a bad move.

    Failure to note any statements made by MoFi employees were their own and not those of MoFi, its employees or management was also a failure on Jim's part if that was indeed the case, one reason why the Chevy example would never happen GM has that explicit policies in place that state official company statements come from one source and one source only, the company's department responsible for making such statements, not a line worker at a Detroit bar.

    Now have I read all 1130 pages of this thread? Of course not, that's why I keep asking for proof, and my asking for such apparently immediately labels me an apologist and/or idiot.

    I've stated before I have not been shown proof of lies from MoFi. That's not forgiving them, that's fact. Not "go listen/read this interview with an employee from 2015" but rather "MoFi stated X in a statement, that was verifiably not and never true. Here's a link."

    If Jim verifiably stated something that no reasonable observer could ask for clarification on, and never walked back that statement, send me a link and I'll happily admit Jim lied.

    When say a US President, regardless of political affiliation, makes a statement that needs to be clarified by the Administration, has the President lied?

    I think we all have different definitions that apply.

    In the end, what I have to say on the subject means little to most who have already made up their minds on this.

    Again I will say unless I am personally attacked again, I have no intention to continue pounding any of these points into the ground via further responses as I feel I've largely said my piece.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2022
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  13. Vaughan

    Vaughan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex, UK
    It just takes a tiny bit of imagination. This story isn't simply about being misled, there are many threads to the topic. But as soon as you try and discuss one of those threads, it's closed down by a "but we were misled!" A discussion around a subject is how threads normally run out, but not this one, apparently. By following your logic, it beggars belief that we've had more than 1130 pages of people talking about being misled. I mean, seriously?
     
  14. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    I do have a large number of reissues that stink to my ears. I had hope -silly me- and just kept buying record after record hoping new technology would bring me better :biglaugh:pressings of the old records I love.

    Because I was burned too many times in the 90's and 2000's with inferior products I went to Mofi as a safer option. I had hope there too:rolleyes:.

    I can't agree -at least as a blanket statement- that Mofi doesn't sound as good as others -I took that as other reissues- because I find them superior to some reissues that are awful. But to me they are still lacking in some way. In the last few years I've made substantial changes to my system and cabling and that has exacerbated my opinion on the lacking bit. Of course if this would have been known, I would have blamed the digital part. As it was I could only blame my bad luck or the original tapes not sounding as good as when they were new.

    I do like some new reissues but I have to say I have become the OG, first press nazzi. Funny enough, I do think done well digital can sound good -rarely stellar- I certainly do not see mofi as the best records. This scandal has served the purpose of stopping me from wasting money on expensive reissues, if I am going to risk spending good money on an old record, it will only be on the right original.
     
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  15. MonkeyTennis

    MonkeyTennis Billie Eilish style

    Location:
    Manchester
    Maybe I’ve misunderstood you, but it seemed that you were arguing that they hadn’t lied because that DSD originated from the master tape. Ergo, you seem to argue, it fits the definition of an OMG.

    That being the case, I struggle to imagine a scenario where something would not. Because, in the end, a copy tape is a copy of the master tape. And a copy of a copy of a copy, ultimately, finds it’s provenance in the master tape.

    It seems, from your rationale, that the OMG banner is meaningless, and the differentiation between the silver label and the OMG banner, indistinguishable. In fact, by your rationale, MoV, VMP, and even Back to Black, all fit your loose and sloppy definition of what MoFi intends by the OMG banner. Now MoFi may or may not do a better job than those companies, but that is a separate matter to your principle argument that MoFi did not lie.

    Unless, like I say, I have misunderstood you.
     
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  16. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    If the whole problem was just limited to that banner then it would not have been so serious but the banner is only the tip of the iceberg and the poster you are addressing to is very good at looking the other way when shown something he does not wish to see. So, in my opinion this is only a waste of bandwidth.
     
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  17. VQR

    VQR Recovering AAA-holic

    Location:
    ...
    So when someone lies in major audiophile press like to Guttenberg in CNet:

    "I recently chatted with Rob LoVerde, one of MoFi's mastering engineers, about how the company's remasters differ from the original label's product. First and foremost, he said that every MoFi LP--which was originally recorded to analog--is cut from an analog master tape. That's interesting because ever since digital came onto the scene, most, probably about 99 percent, of LPs for sale now are cut from digital masters."

    We get you saying:

    but also

    I genuinely can't see how you think Rob LeVerde saying something is cut from the analog tape is some misquote MoFi 'just let slip' for 12 years and never once corrected, even when others like Fremer routinely boosted their sales in part by calling MoFI AAA! Rob LeVerde isn't your average car salesman or mechanic in part of the assembly line: he's one of the big 3 engineers at MoFi!

    At what point would you think MoFi lied? Apparently an article quoting LeVerde in 2010 lying, or the video of him lying about the Gain 2 Ultra Analog system being 'all analog,' is not a lie; all the misstatements by engineers who work on the records, lack of corrections, customer service emails, are merely clever wordsmithing with no intent to deceive or misguide AAA analogphiles to keep MoFi's gravy train chuggin'! :biglaugh:
     
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  18. MonkeyTennis

    MonkeyTennis Billie Eilish style

    Location:
    Manchester
    This comment perfectly illustrates the disconnect.

    Can I suggest, as a random thought/suggestion, that you try - just try - for a brief moment to see things from the other perspective. To spend some time in the ‘other man’s’ shoes, so to speak.

    This thread started, pretty much, with a ‘WTF MoFi lied’. That, I think, is plain and evident from the couple of iterations of the thread title.

    As initial speculation solidified into verifiable fact, a series of customers posted here, expressing disappointment and annoyance that they’d been lied to and, in effect, scammed by MoFi. Those same customers have then had to tolerate, as you say, 1130 pages of posters ridiculing, deriding, and minimising that same disappointment and annoyance. You may be at the shallow end of all of that, but, surely you can understand why individuals who feel that they have been scammed might well be upset with the constant refrain - for page upon page - of people posting nuggets to the effect of, ‘MoFi didn’t lie - if you were scammed it’s because you were stupid,’ ‘MoFi did lie, but who doesn’t these days, so suck it up,’ ‘MoFi did lie, but the records sound AMAZING you utter ingrate,’ and - my personal favourite - ‘hahaha, let’s all laugh at the audiofools who couldn’t tell the difference’.

    Now, I’m not suggesting that you don’t have the right to post what you want (within the constraints of the forum rules), but this passive-aggressive nonsense that ‘fault’ (whatever that might mean) sits entirely with the aggrieved is wholly dependent upon a barmiest and most narcissistic reading of those last 1130 pages.

    If my hands are dirty (if that’s how you choose to see it), then so are yours, my friend. So let’s not pretend otherwise.
     
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  19. VQR

    VQR Recovering AAA-holic

    Location:
    ...
    That is basically how I feel at this point when buying albums that are pre-1980's. OG's often are the best for a great sense of aspects like timbre, something many reissues can struggle or lack in comparison.

    After 10 years of collecting records, never having grown up with them, I got frustrated realizing the average reissue isn't going to sound that good, so got to scouring used bins and these forums to figure out which pressings of my favorite albums were the best. I ended up trying one MoFi record after hearing an all right needle drops of various albums, but was not impressed by what I got, granted it was a silver label; KC & the Sunshine Band isn't audiophile, but I would at least expect it to beat my beat up copy I got for a buck before prices got insane!

    Later, I got an AP 45 of Masterpieces by Ellington and was blown away by how amazing a 70 year old monaural recording could be. Definitely not a fair comparison, comparing disco to jazz, but I was still amamzed. Since then I still prefer to seek out originals in clean condition, but god dang a lot of reissues can sound good or better still. Even if just for the aspect of owning something vintage, I'll keep an older pressing even if a reissues beats it, but that's the exception, not the rule, to avoid having too many duplicates.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2022
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  20. Vaughan

    Vaughan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex, UK
    The problem is, the terms used are very woolly. You think it means one thing, but the label likely think it means something else. Since there is no industry definition we all agree on, there are gaps. For example, there is a Master tape. It is copied, in this case digitally. It is worked on, fixed, whatever is needed, and is then put onto an analog tape. The Vinyl is cut from that tape. In this scenario, saying it was "cut from analog tape" is correct. However, I doubt the AAAer's would be very happy. In fact, it might be said it's an obvious deceit, whereas I suspect it's a lot more common than we think.

    One of the problem areas is that many of those who feel deceived now aren't willing to believe anything MOFI say. Personally I don't think is reasonable, nor does it reflect how the real world works. I can understand some anger, but I'm waiting for that initial anger to calm down a bit so we can discuss things on a more even keel. I don't have much time for anyone claiming all their releases have been substandard.
     
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  21. Vaughan

    Vaughan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex, UK
    I'll speak plainly, but I don't mean to offend.

    I honestly think there are people that are now taking on all kinds of hurt for no good reason. I have read a lot of this thread (though not all of it!) What *I* see are people who just want to shut down others who happen to have a different opinion. I've not seen any "ridiculing", or "deriding". And if I think calmer heads should prevail, that's just my opinion, and is in no way intended to "minimize" anything. I just don't happen to agree with the hyperbole. In fact, how can a topic like this not have such discussions and disagreements? Isn't that what the forum is for?

    So I don't understand why, in this thread, one side of the argument should take on a load of hurt and want to shut down people who see things slightly differently. This is how the forum best operates, imo. I've yet to see anyone who claims "‘fault (whatever that might mean) sits entirely with the aggrieved". Not a single instance. Why do you feel this way?

    I'm not even going to repeat my opinion of MOFI again, because I've had to add into so many posts in this thread already just because I know those at the extreme end are going to jump up and down. I'm tired of doing that, to be honest.

    There are those that want MOFI to go out of business, but I don't see any gain in that. We all know where we stand now, and I think it would be a shame of all the good work MOFI have done - and there's a lot - goes to waste.
     
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  22. MonkeyTennis

    MonkeyTennis Billie Eilish style

    Location:
    Manchester
    Thanks for the response. You write,

    I’m referring to this, as totem; the sense of this sentiment runs throughout the thread,

    Again, you’re entitled to your view: I don’t agree with you, but, hey, that’s life. But one of the reasons this thread has continued for so long is because of varying degrees of baiting, trolling, ****-posting, whataboutism, and contrarianism for its own sake. In fact, I’d go further: that is why the thread still exists and continues to run.

    Now, it’s not my job, intention, or desire to police this or any other thread. And so have at it. But the OneStep thread makes an interesting counterpoint. What I don’t see is hordes of aggrieved former customers crapping all over that thread. And I don’t see AAA devotees ridiculing current customers for spending whatever on digitally sourced records. It is, in my humble opinion, a pity that the defenders of MoFi cannot show the same courtesy. But that is - alas - the spirit of the internet writ large.

    As for this,

    You don’t need to go back that far - the theme of ‘hahaha let’s all laugh at the audiofools’ repeats about every 10 pages or so. Albeit, I think some of those posts - especially early days - have been moderated. And to be clear, I wouldn’t expect you to read all 1130 pages - life is sweet, but short. Your time will be far better spent frolicking in the fields of Essex, enjoying one of this weekend’s derbys, or listening to some music :) That’s what I intend to do (not the frolicking, it’s raining like buggery here).
     
  23. bbanderic

    bbanderic Forum Resident

    Of course they do, I never said they didn’t. Go back and re-read my posts, I said IF the Original Master Recording is ANALOG SOURCED, which 99.9% of one steps are, then they should be AAA.
     
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  24. DIYmusic

    DIYmusic Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pennsylvania

    No, actually their sales pitch since way back when, was about using the ACTUAL first generation Master Tape, not a 2nd or 3rd generation ANALOG copy as was used by most large companies, to Avoid the losses of another Generation or Two OF analog and also any subsequent mastering changes by the large labels.

    So all along they were not really about using only analog, but avoiding more generations of analog, meaning they thought analog created a slight to moderate loss in sound quality.

    Their goal was to only use the ACTUAL first (generation) master tape.
    I found that easily with google. So since day one, they wanted to avoid ADDITIONAL steps of analog, and go directly to the ORIGINAL master tape.
    That most tapes HAPPENED to be analog at that point in time, has nothing to do with their sales pitch.
     
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  25. Vaughan

    Vaughan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex, UK
    I can only speak for myself, but I clearly see it very differently. For some reason there are those in this thread that seem to have a "if you're not with me, you're against me" type response. Looking at the larger picture, and pointing out things you may not agree with isn't an attack on your stance, imo. I think everyone has agreed we were misled. However, as I've said before, I don't think that's the entire story.

    I've not seen a single post that is either baiting or trolling, I have to be honest. I've not read every single post, and wouldn't want to. That a discussion might break out about the merits of AAA and ADA is a reasonable extension of the topic, since it underlines the main issue here, imo. That issue for me is not whether Mofi misled people, it's whether AAA does actually make something sound better. I'm convinced it doesn't, and have gone into that a little in the thread. However, you get shut down pretty quickly with the, "yeah, but you don't get it, we were misled!" It's an odd dynamic on a forum that is full of conversation. If someone disagrees with me, it's fine, but I feel in this topic disagreement means you become the enemy. That's a shame.

    I"m not going to read all of this thread. :D

    I will say this though - I try hard to consider everyone here as a friend. We're all here because of our love of music, and for the most part for physical releases. We all want the best we can get, and that means there's a mix of those who demand only the very best, and others who aren't so concerned and are satisfied with something that's merely very good. I HATE falling out with anyone else, because I think of this as a community that has been brought together for a common love of music, and its reproduction. Which is why I've disliked some of what has happened in this thread.

    Essex is sunny today, but I have someone coming to visit next Wednesday and I need to prepare the flat for them. Of course, I'm typing this instead. :D
     
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