Modern DACs have become the AV receiver equivalent. (More DAC talk)

I know I know.
Not another DAC thread.

Some of you may know that I’ve been on a DAC hunt for the past couple years to replace my Marantz HD DAC1. It’s a fine DAC but I do want something a bit more refined.
I’ve tired maybe around 15 DACs in the last 2 years.

NONE of them made me want to retire my Marantz.
And there is always one common theme.

switching power supplies and op amps.

i know I know both can be made well.
The only one to be honest that sounded good with a switching power supply and op amps was the benchmark DAC3.

I just ordered another DAC , but one in high high regard , but once again it has op amps. Hopefully it will sound good.

If it’s doesnt I’m done with op amp DACs and no robust linear power supply.

DACs now look like modern day equivalents of AV receivers as amps.
Jammed full of tech and options. But the analog part is weak. Cheap switching power supplies, cheaply done op amp analog outputs. No focus on those two parts.
Just get a good SINAD and you should be good to go.

look at just a few years ago. Almost all DACs had linear power supplies , class A discreet analog output stages with little to no feedback.

now it’s all concentrated around stickers on the DAC , MQA stickers , HIRES stickers and options galore. But none sound full and yes I’m gonna say it. Musical.

they sound like going from a good Stereo Amplifier to an AV receiver.


Peace

 

I think you need to look at companies that are doing things different than the rest. Chord, Schiit Yggdrasil, PS Audio, Denafrips, etc. avoid brands that are just dropping in ESS chips.

 

So perhaps try a Dac from a few years ago? Mine's from 2010 sounds great has a linear and quite robust power supply a discrete analog output stage and it sounds fantastic. No bells or whistles just great sound.

 

Get a used copy of the DAC I use so we can be DAC brothers. Linear power supply in a separate metal box inside the unit, custom digital filtering, and no op-amps (other than a DC servo). 24 individual transistors of glory for the output stage.

Many more recent DACs all seem too smooth and bleached out. If we measured for that, we could use those measurements to coerce the manufacturers back into optimizing for dynamics and tone color and not just something easy to measure like frequency response.

 

That’s EXACTLY what I have in mind because all todays DACs are like AV receivers.

 

I have with some of those. chord I don’t like. They do awesome with their filters, but I think need to give their power supplies and output stages more attention now

Denafrips has a lot of DSP , and makes the soundstage larger than it should be. I didn’t like the Venus II
A Schiit Yggy might be good but I recently tried the Bifrost 2/64 and it was harsh bright.

but I’m definitely gonna go on that path.

 

Maybe it would be good for a company who’s prime competence is digital technology could team up with a company with analog expertise and produce a DAC.

someone ask Nelson Pass to make the power supply and analog output stage of their DAC.

 

You could buy one of these:
https://www.passlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/d1_om.pdf

I think I remember seeing someone on this forum had one.

 

that’s a touch too old.

I’ll tell you why.

if you have used HQplayer. It really works.
It’s not like the weak low math filters in chips.
I could never tell a difference in DAC filters.
But the HQplayer ones really work and make your DAC sound much better.

i would like something that is as old as going to around 384khz. I don’t need more than that.

if all that makes sense

 

Agreed. Sometimes it pays to go backwards to make progress.

For my part, I find my current Lite Audio DAC83 to be a faithful partner in music reproduction. 4x PCM1704-UK DACs, Class A FET output stage (same as used to he used in the Audio Innovations Alto integrated amplifier), robust linear power supply. It's not remotely fashionable and it's all the better for it.

Lots of neat tricks inside implemented by the Hong Kong designers of the time (eg, mini signal conditioning transformers between the accompanying transport and the DAC, as also used by Audio Note UK; specifc filtering arrangements using disguised BB filters; proper, balanced output stage; I2S connection if desired).

I've read reviews (Threshold Lovers) comparing it favourably to the Audio Note DAC 4.1. A Naim dealer to whom I took it in order to try some of their amps compared it positively to the Naim CD555 system they had. Flattering maybe. 110dB S/N ratio, 133dB dynamic range definitely.

It's not the only one out there like this. But you may have to get off the digital highway and explore a few backroads to find your digital nirvana.

 

That makes sense to me. That will limit you from the more inexpensive DACs. If you want good linear power supplies and discrete output stages and 384kHz, that’s gonna get expensive. I don’t now who produces stuff like that since I haven’t had the budget to look.

 

I bought a topping D90se not expecting a difference...it's actually better than expected...more transparent to source than anything I've heard.I don't put this down to anything in the digital domain.Preout electonics seem to get passed over here,but all dacs have this and in my opinion it can be "the difference".

 

My friend @Whoopycat has that Dac and loves it and interestingly enough I sold him my Yamamoto Dac which he loved but slightly preferred the Pass. I bought that same Yamamoto Dac back from him when my AN Dac went in for long term repairs. And after that Whoopycat bought another, souped up, Yamamoto Dac he found on Amart. So two great Dacs indeed!

 

The Topping D90SE hands down is the worst DAC I’ve heard.
Sorry about that. No offense
The topping D30pro was much much better. But like a veil was over it and not much weight to instruments etc. way too smoothed over which is a total sign of too much negative feedback

 

even if it gets to 192khz, it’s fine for upsampling.
When I hear some people using HQplayer to upsample over 768khz it’s ridiculous. And as a matter of fact some things start to degrade after going too high.

 

The Gustard X26 Pro addresses all your issues.
A very, very good DAC.

GUSTARD X26 PRO MQA Full Decoding ES9038Pro*2 Chip DSD512 Bluetooth 5.0 XMOS XU216 High Performance Audio Decoder

The One to Beat: Gustard X26 PRO DAC Review

 

Thanks but no.
First thing I don’t like is the ESS chip sound.
Second is that Gustard has like around 5 years of analog experience.

pardon no offense

 

That's super cool. I'd love to hear the Pass DAC and your Yamamoto DAC someday.

 

When you have to say "no offense " twice in the last 20 minutes........

 

Gustard is also making a discrete R-2R DAC. The Gustard R26.

Looks like a potentially suitable DAC that I've been keeping on my watch list to see if/when it gets reviews by ears I trust.

 

I don't agree. Technically and subjectively, DACs have come a long way in 20 years. AV Receivers still give fundamentally weak performance, spread across a wide range of formats.

 

It’s called being kind.
That’s all.
Nothing more nothing less.

you can’t see my inflection while I write these things so I try and make myself clear that I don’t mean to attack anyone. Make sense ?

 

My Gold Note DS10 with outboard power supply is very musical. Have you heard that one yet? If so what are your thoughts?

 

Gustard might be the only Chinese DAC I might want to try with modern Chipsets but with a more traditional and robust power supply and output stage.
But as I mentioned before they haven’t been at it for long.
But I haven’t heard one so I can’t say for sure, is the honest truth.

The A26 would be my choice instead. New AKM chip

 

If a 10 -15 year old “then” expensive DAC was getting rave reviews when it was released, why shouldn’t it NOT sound great today at about 25% ( or less) of the cost? Assuming you don’t need a newer audio file format.