More on cleaning records...

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Holy Zoo, Mar 8, 2003.

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  1. Holy Zoo

    Holy Zoo Gort (Retired) :-) Thread Starter

    Location:
    Santa Cruz
    So looking for more advice from you veteran record cleaners.

    I have a VPI 16.5, using the cleaner from Disc Doctor. It works wonders on most discs, but I'm still running into that disc with ticks and pops that just can't be cured.

    Does anyone have any advice to try on these tricky ticky discs?

    What I'm trying right now is playing one of these albums several times per side, then I'll try cleaning it again. My hope is that the needle helps loosen some of the dust/debris, and that the VPI will have an easier time of it afterward.

    Thoughts on this methodology? Am I doing harm to my needle/cart doing this? The record isn't a disaster, mind you. The grooves, other than the ticks and pops, sound to be in good condition.

    jeff
     
  2. thegage

    thegage Forum Currency Nerd

    You've done what I try: repeated playings, then cleaning. I always figure that if there are any clicks/pops/distrotion left after that then it's irreversible groove damage--either actual chunks taken out of the groove wall, or material embedded in it. Some people have reported success with a steam cleaner, but even that won't fix groove damage.

    John K.
     
  3. audio

    audio New Member

    Location:
    guyana
    Is it possible to effectively clean records by simply using the disc doctor system with no vaccum machine?
     
  4. Stax Fan

    Stax Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest
    Actually, the playing of a Disc Doctor-cleaned LP several times is necessary to achieve optimum playback. Cleaning debris from the groove results in a new groove geometry. Your stylus must then reseat itself into the new path, which will require a few plays. It's not unusual for a record having been freshly cleaned with the DD fluid AND thoroughly rinsed to exhibit some slight surface noise. Again, this is typical, and will ordinarily dissipate substantially after the first few plays if the noise is not inherent in the pressing or due to groove wear or damage.

    After having thoroughly cleaned a record with the DD fluid, and after properly rinsing it, there should be no debris remaining in the grooves. Even if some did remain, playing wouldn't loosen it. Quite the opposite, actually. The high heat and force generated by the tracking stylus would likely bond most of the remaining debris into the temporarily softened groove walls. Dirty records, when played, get noisy quite fast due to this. Any noise reduction from playing a freshly cleaned record is the result of the stylus reseating itself, or deburring the path it tracks in the groove. It's shaving a clear path for itself, so to speak.

    If a record doesn't get quieter, it's almost certainly inherent in the pressing...something no amount of cleaning will ever correct. You can try another cleaning, but that *probably* won't fix it. The Disc Doctor's fluid is awfully effective and won't leave much if anything behind after just one thorough cleaning.

    I think the rinsing stage is the MOST important component of the DD system. Rinse at least twice. A third time certainly won't hurt.

    Remember, bad pressings are not at all uncommon. If you get a bad pressing, you might consider locating another copy. A keen eye for record grading will serve you well. The more records you've seen, the better you'll get at spotting how a used record was treated. Of course, you never know for sure how a record will perform until it's played, but an experienced eye can spot a well-played record that appears very clean otherwise. That's why I generally stay away from eBay. I need to see what I'm buying. I only use a handful of dealers on eBay with whom I dealt before they ever sold there.

    There is a little trick with noisy pressings that appears to work at least sometimes. I stay away from applying anything to records, but I gave this a shot on a whim with a cheap Grateful Dead record. Have a look at this thread:

    http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11749

    By the way, it worked for my purpose...which was to clean away the leached plastic from the inner sleeve. I should've posted the result, but by that time, the thread was a bit old.


    __________
    AC
     
  5. Stax Fan

    Stax Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest
    Sure, it's just much easier and more thorough with a vacuum machine.

    Search the archives for "Disc Doctor" or "vacuum". There's plenty of discussion regarding record cleaning, with and without vacuum machines.

    Welcome to the forum!


    __________
    AC
     
  6. mcow1

    mcow1 Sommelier Gort

    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    Sure, I don't have a cleaning machine but Disc Doctor still works great.
     
  7. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff

    Location:
    US
    Steel wool and a stiff wire brush will work wonders. ;)

    I've done a few odd things in the past, which worked sometimes but not others:

    1. With my vacuum, I replaced the felt applicators with a brush (which I think was made by VPI). And I'm not afraid to scrub it down into the grooves. I have still used the felt applicators to distribute the fluid, but I actually use the brush for cleaning.

    2. Occasionally, I've "soaked" an album for 15 minutes. Have to watch to make sure the fluid doesn't evaporate. I figure some of the crud has a better chance of being removed if it's given time to dissolve into the fluid. I'm also not above cleaning it again immediately if I don't get good results.

    3. Used to have a small bottle of Nitty Gritty Power Cleaner...used it all up! It would sometimes work on tougher noisy LPs. Some with leeched plastic from innersleeves, or more severe cases of dirt, would clean up nicely. But some didn't, which led me to believe the vinyl itself was damaged (or it could have been that funky recycled vinyl, too). Wonder if anyone has had any more luck with the HCFC's we discussed in another thread here.
     
  8. rontokyo

    rontokyo Senior Member

    Location:
    Tokyo, Japan
    Have you tried playing the record "wet"? I've found that some discs that still retain ticks after repeated cleaning play cleaner wet. There is that school of thought, though, that believes that wet playing damages the groove walls as the stylus isn't seating properly, so proceed with caution if it's a valuable record.
     
  9. audio

    audio New Member

    Location:
    guyana
    Re: Re: More on cleaning records...

    Be careful!! A good record cleaner will heat up and start to disolve the vinyl if it is left on too long, so I've been told.
     
  10. Stax Fan

    Stax Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest
    Playing records wet is not a good idea, IMO.

    Once a record is played wet, it has to be played wet from there on. Any debris created from playing (stylus powder, the odd vinyl shaving, etc) will settle and be concentrated into the bottom of the groove once the water evaporates. If you play it dry after that, the stylus will grind the debris into the groove, where it'll stay due to the heat and force generated by the stylus. In other words, once a record has been played wet, it'll always be noisier when played dry.

    Ever seen a masonry saw that uses water to enhance the cutting ability of the blade? The same concept would apply here, where the edges of the stylus become the blades. Granted, it isn't to the same degree, but it'll shave in certain instances where it wouldn't have when dry, and shave more where it would've less when dry.

    Wet playing also effects the cartridge...particularly moving coil cartridges. If your cantilever is aluminum, it'll start to corrode very quickly, which is quite bad. Due to the lower positioning of the coils in moving coil designs, they could very well begin to corrode as well, which would inhibit their mobility. The kiss of death for a cartridge. It's possible the pole and wiring could corrode, too.

    Bad ju ju. Best to get another copy.


    __________
    AC
     
  11. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff

    Location:
    Toronto
    Did you try the Sckott method (sink, paper towels, etc.)? Should be in the archives somewhere....
     
  12. Jamie Tate

    Jamie Tate New Member

    Location:
    Nashville
    Re: Re: More on cleaning records...

    Hey Rudy,

    I just tried your steel wool/ stiff wire brush method on some of my records. Here's my results:

    AC/DC- It made the distorted guitars sound heavier and louder, so loud that I hardly recognized the tunes.

    John Denver- It made the acoustic guitars sound heavier and louder, so loud that I hardly recognized the tunes.

    Beethoven- It made the orchestra sound heavier and louder, so loud that I hardly recognized the tunes.

    The Beatles- It made everything sound heavier and louder, so loud that I hardly recognized the tunes.

    Maybe I didn't do it right. Could you send some step by step some instructions to me?
     
  13. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff

    Location:
    US
    Re: Re: Re: More on cleaning records...

    That's a good one! ;) (Sounds like something from Mission Impossible, when those tapes and records used to self-destruct. :D ) I don't see how something inert like a record cleaner (which is mainly distilled water) would have any catalyst to generate heat.

    I used to use that Power Cleaner on tougher dirt, but it had to be vacuumed immediately, or it would evaporate.
     
  14. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff

    Location:
    US
    Y"know what keeps going through my mind when I read that? "Mud." No, not our esteemed pal Mudbone, but I just have a vision of all those tiny particles of dirt mixing with the water and settling to the bottom of the grooves.

    In the late 70's, I attended an audio show and saw a turntable accessory that wetted the LPs as they played. It certainly didn't sound bad (I'm resisting the temptation to say it had a "fluid" sound :D ), but even back then, being a pimply teen, I still had that nagging question in my head: "What happens when that crud dries in the grooves?" Today, I also think..."Can this be good for the cartridge?" I'm sure that along with some minor overspray, water must migrate up the cantilever. Certainly can't be good for it.

    I've had a couple of experiences in my lifetime where I was unable to get cleaning fluid out of the grooves, and it made the LPs a mess. I never wet another LP until I got a record vacuum. I've always felt that a vacuum was the only consistent way to lift that crud out of the bottom of the grooves.
     
  15. Jamie Tate

    Jamie Tate New Member

    Location:
    Nashville
    Re: Re: Re: Re: More on cleaning records...

    I tried Comet and Soft Scrub. Neither worked as well as the steel wool/ wire brush method though.
     
  16. Stax Fan

    Stax Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest
    Try some battery acid next time. :thumbsup:


    __________
    AC
     
  17. sgraham

    sgraham New Member

    Location:
    Michigan
    Re: Re: Re: More on cleaning records...

    I think it's not so much that it will heat up as that it will "leech the plasticizers" or some such chemical mumbo jumbo. Supposedly the vinyl will become more brittle and susceptible to wear if certain fluids (alcohol for instance) are left on too long.
     
  18. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff

    Location:
    US
    Re: Re: Re: More on cleaning records...

    It does take a little work, and some finesse, to get it to come out correctly:

    1. The stiffer the wire brush, the better. Steel bristles are good. The brass ones are softer, but they tend to curl when you really start grinding away on those grooves.

    2. Steel wool is OK, but I neglected to mention that S.O.S. pads work even better. That added detergent sometimes helps...especially when you work up a good lather.

    3. One good and relatively unknown trick for those really nasty scraches--put them on the bench grinder!

    You may just need some more practice. Don't piddle around with those shabby rock LPs, though--make sure you're at least using good MoFi vinyl to try this out. That slight roughness you may be hearing is actually the "raw" music coming through--stripping away all that dirt, crud, impurities and other crap really does make a difference!

    And I'm told that the little piles of black vinyl shavings really should be sent to your local vinyl recycler.
     
  19. audio

    audio New Member

    Location:
    guyana
    Re: Re: Re: Re: More on cleaning records...

    The person that told me that a strong cleaner will heat up and start to deteriorate the vinyl if it is left on too long is the Technical Director of Sumiko Audio. But, Rudy, I suppose you know more about this than he does.
     
  20. sgraham

    sgraham New Member

    Location:
    Michigan
    There is something in that.

    1. As Arin said, once you play a record wet all the junk that's in the grooves gets stirred up and when the record dries it gets plastered back on the groove walls making the record noisy. You'd want to give it a really good cleaning before playing it "dry" again.

    2. It has been suggested in various places that it's not good for the vinyl to leave fluid on for too long. I can't attest to this personally.

    3. As has been noted, the fluid can get wicked up the cantilever and interfere with the cartridge's suspension and coils.

    However, if you need to get a record quiet in a hurry, wet playing can work wonders. The radio station that employs me once had a record on the air that had about as much noise as signal. In desperation I brushed some alcohol on and hey presto! Instant quiet! Miraculous. But not necessarily recommended.

    (Still better than Comet and steel wool, though!)

    [NEVER put alcohol on an acetate - it *erases* the grooves!]
     
  21. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff

    Location:
    US
    Re: Re: Re: Re: More on cleaning records...

    I understand the good cleaners today don't even use alcohol, for that reason. All that's really needed is distilled water, a wetting agent, and a very mild detergent to help loosen the dirt.
     
  22. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff

    Location:
    US
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: More on cleaning records...

    I doubt it...but common sense tells me that something mild, containing nothing that will react with vinyl, would not harm the vinyl much, if at all. I don't know anyone who uses a "strong cleaner" regularly, if at all, on the vinyl. The Disc Doctor fluid I've read was developed to be as gentle to and compatible with the vinyl as possible, while getting it clean at the same time. We discussed stronger cleaners in another thread (search for "HCFC") and how a cleaner like that could help some "worst case" vinyl without harming it too much.

    I only use my "soaking" as an extreme measure after everything else has failed. I will have tried to clean it normally at least two or three times. My Power Cleaner is no longer made...Nitty Gritty was probably asked not to make it due to environmental concerns, since it may have contained CFCs.
     
  23. Stax Fan

    Stax Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest
    Hey, Jamie...I forgot to mention gasoline. Works like a charm. Stick with regular, though...too much octane is bad for the vinyl. ;)
     
  24. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    Here's a repost of the "sink" method that works for me. You have no idea how simple and effective it is until you try it, especially on "pesky" dirty records:

    Here's what I do when I get a nice "clean" used record that's a noisy bastard (no laughing!) You may follow at your daring, caring discression:

    1. Clear and clean your sink out, and make sure nothing is interfearing with your space. No dishes, no pans, clean it. Your wife will love you.

    2. Turn the foucet on, warm, but not hot (let the water run for a while and make sure no one's gonna flush, okay?).

    3. Lay a terrycloth down, must be clean, and quickly cover it with paper towels, not the cheap stuff, enough so that the LP can sit flat on the counter, clean, edge-to-edge.

    4. That's right. Soak it. Put it under the water at an angle so the water runs on the deadwax, and off the edge. Rotate the album while maintaining a slow speed until you've gone around one side. DO NOT get the label wet. If you want, you can run the water a low-flow, so you can control water droplets and how it runs more efficiantly off the record. If the vinyl is smooth and not worn, the water may have no luck sticking to the surface anyway. Don't freak if water is sticking to the record.

    5. Do the other side too. Just be careful of the faucet and getting the label wet (unless the label isn't pourus paper, in which most smooth pressings you can soak completely).

    6. Drop it on top the cloths nearby, with a gentle drop. Grab some more paper towels and toss one, maybe two on it, to cover the partially wet record. Real careful now: You're gonna pat the record dry without making any "anti-groovy" action. Don't scuff the LP by using pressure, or by wiping in ANY direction. PAT dry. Gently spread and lift the paper towel until the record is *almost* completely dry. Take the paper towel off, then on...etc..

    You can also get picky and use a 'sliver' of paper towel to drag (using gravity only) to dry off the runoff groove area. This keeps the shiny, new appearence of the record clean. Not like you care much the the non-musical portion of the wax, it beats looking at the LP and seeing water spots.

    7. Flip the record and pat that side too. No wiping motions, just pat and lift the paper until the record dries. The warm water will evaporate as it cools off.

    8. Bring it over to the turntable and if it's still a touch wet, go over it GENTLY with a D4 brush - GENTLY so the felt absorbes the wetness a bit. Even if the record is still just a *TAD* wet...you...

    9. Play. Quieter, huh?!?

    This should give you an idea of how good wet/dry methods work. Try this only when you don't have a real wet cleaner, and you've bought this $3.99 used LP that looks mint, but sounds like ****. It's usually mould or residue, and this has gotten $2 LPs to sound like $20 - Really!! Hey, you bought the record, what's the sense if it sounds bad?

    **Note** Use good aper towels, try to stay away from store bought to keep the lint down.....also you're gonna find that most used records that LOOK GREAT but play crappy will benefit from this meathod everytime. I've only done it once to records that misbehave. If you play your details right, barely anyone will see that Discwasher residue, or brush friction on the album, including you!
     
  25. michael w

    michael w New Member

    Location:
    aotearoa
    Sckott;

    You can't be seriously recommending this "method" to forum members ???
    You're a month early for April Fool's.

    The method described doesn't even come close to how "real" RCMs work let alone efficent hand cleaning methods...

    Without scrubbing deep into the grooves with a brush all you are doing is turning the upper layer of dirt into slush that may worsen the condition of the record.

    Plus by using normal tap water you run the risk of adding to the pollutants already on the record.

    Sheeeeeesh...

    :p
     
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