More Speaker positioning experimentation. ( distance between speakers)

This might be a touch long so I’ll try and space things out evenly to make for an easier read. Or make another post below as not to lose some of you.

I’ve learned from playing guitar, that it is best to try and squeeze the most you can from your instrument before moving on to another.
I’m always learning and part of my fun from audio is experimenting and learning.
The room/speaker positioning is from what I’m seeing the number one factor.

I want to concentrate on Speaker Distance from each other as that is what my latest experimentation has been and I’ve been really surprised.



You can literally be NOT hearing what your speakers sound like if you don’t get the distance between your speakers right. Or at least in the ballpark.

1) Basic rule is that, the closer the speakers are together , the more mid bass you will have and the center image ( as well as the sides ) increase in size.
2) You can actually make a mix which originally had a screechy horn in it sound ‘ sweeter’ by putting the speakers closer together , and conversely bring out more screechiness by pulling them too apart.
3) One thing I read which is a good visualization for me , is that the closer you put them together is like taking two spheres and the closer you put them together and they overlap the bigger and more dense the sound becomes. Pull them apart and they will get less dense. There is a sweet spot in the middle.

 

So this has been my approach as of lately which I wanted to share for distance between speakers.
I know some will have way more experience than me in this so my apologies to you.
Hopefully this might help some others at getting the best sound from their speakers.


I do NOT use the method of testing to see whether a human voice which sits in the center mix sounds the right size. It’s too vague and confusing.

Instead I have done the following that works really well.
( This is after you have found the distance from the front wall)

1) I start off with the speakers further apart than they should be. You can do the opposite but I find this works best to find the sweet spot.
2) I use center mixed Cello and Drums mostly. A center mixed upright bass sometimes as well just to make sure the other two are not off.
3) As a reference for number 2, use more than one source of music because your ears will fatigue with just listening over and over again to one song.
4) I do this over the course of days to avoid ear fatigue and confusion.

5) Use headphones as a reference for volume and impact differences between instruments in the song you are listening to.
6) Put on the song and your headphones and see what is the volume difference is between the drums in the middle and the instruments on the sides. Is it bigger? Does it have more impact than the other instruments? Does the mix make them sound boomy? Whatever you are hearing through the headphones will be your reference.
7) I usually go for music where the center mixed instrument is balanced in volume and impact compared to the rest of the instruments in the mix.
8) When you start pulling your speakers closer together you will see them coming closer to the reference sound you have from the headphones. Look for certain cues in parts of the song where the drums or cello might become boomy as a ( fault in the mix) Use that as a reference as well.
9) You will tell when you are getting closer when things start coming together well while still having clarity.
10) When you go over and have them too close together, you will notice boominess where there is none in the mix ( from your headphones) and usually it will lead you to turn down the volume in certain passages in the song and up in others.
11) Millimeters actually matter.
12) If you pass the sweet spot as I mentioned above write down the distance as a reference.
13) Pull them further apart now but at very small increments.

14) Do this until the volume of the center instrument is equal to the other instruments in the mix. Or however the song was mixed.

 

Other tips.

since the center mixed instrument is panned equally from both speakers. You can also tilt your head towards the left or right speaker to hear as a reference if it is equal in sound to the phantom center sound.
Equal in impact and size and clarity.

I mentioned Cello because if you choose a piece with a center cello you can pick out parts where the player will hit those low notes and the bass goes up a lot.
See how defined that bass is from the cello on your headphones and how big the bass volume gets.
How much bigger in volume and impact are the bass notes he or she bows compared to the higher notes? Use that as a reference . From your headphones of course.

And finally no, no ,no. I’m not talking about using the headphones for timbre etc. Yes headphones will have a different sound than your speakers. You are not going for that. You are just going for volume and impact differences.


Pardon for the long posts. But this has super helped me in hearing the best from my speakers.
In other words I’m actually getting closer to hearing what my speakers really sound like.

Always learning.
And by all means tell me if you think I’m wrong for certain things. Always want to learn and discuss more.

hope this helps !

 

To illustrate your point, a few months ago a friend was over to listen to my setup. We listened to my speakers in their usual spot which 7ft tweeter to tweeter, and decided to compare them to a pair of Vienna Acoustic Bach speakers I had. As I had worked hard on positioning my speakers, we set up the other speakers to the outside of the regulars. After toeing them in I was shocked at how good the backups sounded.

After my friend left I moved my regular speakers out to where the Bachs had sounded so good. The speakers that sounded so good with 7 ft between them sound terrible with with 10 ft between them. Toe in changes couldn't get them any better.

 

Yeah, I think distance between speakers gets vastly overlooked and all the focus goes on speaker distance from the front wall.
Both are equally important.

 

I think what you're doing is great and an excellent way to determine what your speakers are capable of and how they interact with your room.

 

Thanks man.
There is so much to learn from your first speaker set before jumping onto new speakers.

for the longest time I was listening to my speakers too close to each other.
Some songs sounded great and others meh.

when you get the distance between them correct or close to correct then all the songs will sound more like the balance of volume and impact you hear from the same songs on a good pair of headphones.


Funny thing is, also you will then hear more of where your speakers are lacking as well

 

Have you pulled them out from the wall? I ended up pulling mine out about 5 feet. Fortunately, I have the space. My bass response is a lot smoother and the depth I acquired was amazing. I think I'm pretty close to as optimal positioning as I can get. I just need to pull them out a little bit more and slightly closer together.

 

yeah of course. I’m OCD. Lol
I have them approximately 2’9” from the front wall.
Measuring from the front of the baffle.
Trust me I know exactly how far they are from the back in mm so I can be exact.
Cause ever a couple mm makes a difference. And I don’t know if that’s cause my room is on the smaller side. 12’ x 17’. Along the long side.
I was always wondering if smaller increments matter more in smaller rooms and in larger rooms smaller increments make less of a diff.

yeah good man. Is the sound a bit anemic for certain stuff and you want to pull them closer to each other?

 

I'm getting a little bit of weirdness right in the center. It's hard to describe but I can hear they're slightly too far apart.

 

try what I said?

hope all the ‘ instructions made sense

 

I get my new speakers next month. I look forward to trying this during setup

 

Your right it was long

 

Hahahaha

i know. Ooops.

sorry


I just hate it when you look at speaker set up articles and it goes on and on about everything else . And when you get to speaker distance it has one sentence.
“ Make your speakers an equilateral triangle from your listening distance “

huh??
That’s it??

lol

 

Lol.. it was actually good you put a lot thought into

 

or lunacy.

lol

 

What speakers are you getting if you don’t mind me asking?

 

Wolf von Langa son

 

A question though...how were the speakers toed in (or not) when making these adjustments? Did you keep them aimed at the same point?

 

Another question..what specific tracks are you using?

 

Good question.

Initially I would have them setup like I said too far apart , but I would have them toed in properly ( as I prefer) to get a center image. Even if it was washed out. Have the toe in marked with a laser on the back wall.
For the first few times that I started to pull them closer together I wouldn’t re-check the toe in.
When I felt I was getting close, I would then , pull them together at smaller increments and re-check the toe in with the laser. And also check the distance to the front wall with the laser to make sure they were still at the distance I liked.

My speakers sound the best with 0.606mm from the front wall, measured from the back of the speaker ( to be accurate with my laser ).

So I would measure distance between speakers, write it down, measure distance from the front wall to make sure it’s 0.606mm , toe in to my liking and listen.
Then every increment when I would pull them closer I would repeat.

i eventually got to the point where it was near perfect. Of course since I try to make it as perfect as possible I went over. Then wrote down the distance between the speakers with a +-10mm. And tried within that distance to find the sweep spot.

this is also why I did it over the course of a few days.

Hope that made sense.

 

You use a MONO recording to set the distance between speakers and your listening position. Period. Then move the speaker in and out to get the best bass response and imaging along with toe-in/out.

So you're moving your speakers around to get the best sound - what's new about your long-winded post? Are you using REW to see what happens to the frequency response and phase?

There's no 'magic' in setting up speakers - JUST USE YOUR EARS!!

 

A great track list to use when trying to find the ultimate speaker placement. Paul’s Picks updated – PS Audio

 

I pulled up qobuz and searched "mono" releases. Not 100% accurate, but I already have created an extensive playlist this morning

 

I like the Triangle approach.