More Stones SACD Details

Hey Jeff,

I'd like to report that Bill Inglot is maquerading as Steve!

 

No, you're right, it's not one of the better stereo mixes. If they want to put the mono mix on the comps, fine. However, I firmly believe the stereo mix should be on Aftermath, especially since it was released that way. Don't you think it would be silly to have an entire album in stereo except for the opening cut, even though that cut has always been there in stereo?

And that "guitar thingie" is a sitar...

 

if so many of the original stereo mixes were poorly done, why don't they remix from the 3 and 4 track tapes?

 

Yeah, you're probably right...that's never sounded like a sitar to me.

-D

 

Too bad they aren't making one stereo-only SACD using the UK track-listing and Paint It Black as a bonus track, and another mono-only SACD with the same track configuration. Would've been a lot more helpful than the two they have planned.

 

Well, you said the Chess tapes were dumped (by Chess), which I can believe. That's not a huge deal, though, as the majority of the Chess tracks were mixed to stereo, and mixed well. The only stuff we're missing are the '65 tracks (Under Assistant West Coast Promo Man, Mercy Mercy, etc).

For the RCA stuff, I *believe* somebody (Decca?) was in possession of the multitracks, and I think ABKCO gave an order to throw them all away. I've been told, however, that while they probably don't exist in Polygram's vaults anymore, they were NOT thrown out.

Some of the Between The Buttons multis clearly still exist, as a bunch of the pre-bounced backing tracks came out on boot. Those probably came from Olympic, though, kind of like the Lifehouse To Leeds material.

 

All of the ICE updates (as previously posted) have been moved here:

http://www.icemagazine.com/daily/183/w020624.asp

No other news to report!

 

Again, thanks to all, but after reading all this, I for one am forced to conclude that there is really no substitute for a full set of UK vinyl (mono and stereo); a full set of US mono vinyl (ffrr only on the first 4) and boxed marroon on DC through TSMR; a full set of German London CD's; and now the SACD's. Expensive hobby!

 

This is a little off-topic, but could somebody explain how Allan Klein's company actually ended up with ownership of the London/Decca tapes? I've tried to do some www research on this but can't find much of an answer...

Thanks,

John
Vancouver, BC, Canada

 

It's because Decca never really *owned* the stuff in the first place - the Stones recorded on their own and leased the stuff to Decca. So, really, the Stones themselves should own that stuff now, but because of the wranglings with Klein, ABKCO owns it.

Decca's lease simply ran out...

BTW, anyone know what ABKCO stands for? I've heard both "Allen and Betty Klein Company" and "Allen B. Klein Company".

 

Well, they *did* cut some early tracks at Decca, and they don't really sound too great. Fortune Teller, Poison Ivy (first version)... Certainly not much better (if at all) than the other early UK recorded stuff.

 

What's the poop on so much pop cut at RCA being rolled off in the highs? The Living Stereo stuff can sound spectacular, the Nashville stuff has proven to be mighty hi-fi, so why did the West Coast RCA studio chop things off??? I don't have a lotta stuff on RCA labels (I vi-bo-rate to a different drummer), so besides Elvis and Nillson (haven't played the MoFi of Nillson Schmillson lately - better go do that) I don't have much to go by. I'll second wishing the Stones had signed with Decca directly - those crummy mono masters remind of the Yardbirds' sonic mess up til Roger the Engineer - hmmmm, maybe it's the Giorgio Gomelsky connection that makes for crummy sounding masters!

 

On a similar note... About three or four years ago I had heard, on public radio, that The Stones BBC Sessions were going to be released and then heard nothing more. Can you shed any light on what happened Luke?

 

I was actually going to bring something up about this...

...one of the big things mentioned here is how Dave Hassinger cut all the highs every time he did a bounce. Which would explain why, say, the backing track to Satisfaction sounds so bad.

HOWEVER, I finally got to hear some various session outtakes today, thanks to David Goodwin. An early take of Satisfaction is one of those included - just backing, no vocals. However, what's interesting is that it contains the acoustic guitar and piano, things that would have been added post-bounce. So, it seems as if Satisfaction, anyway, was done straight to 4-track without bouncing. So much for that theory.

Also, I'd previously mentioned Have You Seen Your Mother - I thought perhaps the fidelity was lost when they did a bounce in the UK to add horns. However, a version on boot *has* the horns (but no lead vocals, and possibly without a few other overdubs), but has killer sound. The track sounds like it could have been recorded with the rest of the Between The Buttons tracks, not like it was recorded on the moon. Again, so much for that theory.

I'd just like to know what the hell happened with that...

 

Well, who knows if they would have kept the tapes anyway. It seems as if either Fortune Teller was done via mono only, or they never kept the tapes, as it's never shown up in stereo.

 

First of all, Steve H. is working with a bunch of RCA tapes right now from late1965 and they are ALL three channel tapes, not four channel. At least three bounces on them before ANY vocals were added, too.

I love the word BOUNCE. Reminds me of being a kid on a Pogo Stick.

The first reel (marked prime) sounds great. The second reel marked "A" really sounds bad. By the time they dubbed that to 1B and the vocals were put on, ouch, bad filtered sound. (Dobie Gray BTW).

So, here is my point. Luke, unless your friend has a copy of a true RCA "Prime" reel, it's bounced music. They didn't have sel sync. Steve and I just re-listened to Satisfaction, stereo mix from MFSL, and he estimates that the music tracks alone would have been built up at least two times, before the vocals were added. Then, another bounce for the first vocal, and ANOTHER bounce for the second vocal.

For example, on one Dobie Gray song, there are three full reels of music only stuff, each one sounding worse than the "cleaner" version before it, but more instruments. Really funky way to do things if you ask me. GUESS THE NAME OF THE ENGINEER ON THE BOX!

By 1966, when RCA went four-track (according to Mr. Steve) things got cleaner, with the ability to overdub right on to the prime tape. Saved a lot of generations of tape. That's why Aftermath sounds a lot better than Satisfaction if you ask me.


Edited by SH

 

Why would Sel Sync be against union rules but not bouncing?

As far as other RCA tracks go - what about Sam Cooke? Specifically, Good Times. Cut in late '63 and early '64 in Hollywood. That's either a 4-track recording or has a bounce, as there are at least two vocals from Sam. But yet the music tracks sound great. Why would that be?

 

I suppose I'm in the minority here, but for me the Stones singles sounded great because we had to focus on the musical content and song quality.

They were great because they sounded bad. Just like the Capitol Beatles singles I had. I didn't care. A great tune will always shine through.

I would not want to change a single thing on the Satisfaction I know and love. If people want stereo and audiophile quality, they are missing the point IMO. I'm inclined to think that the lack of top end brings out the midrange energy that makes these tunes "rock". But what do I know...

What more do we want from these songs? I don't think they have anything left to "prove".

I liked Steve's analogy of comparing mastering to displaying a fine work of art (painting) in the best possible light. In the case of the Stones classic singles, I'm not sure I would want something that brings out the performance "flaws" and detracts from the song.

I assume it is Dave Hassinger who is the "RCA engineer" and I find it interesting that Hassinger recorded Linda's "Heart Like A Wheel" (fine sounding record) and also taught engineering to Val Garay, who has made some of the finest sounding pop/rock recordings ever. Hmmm...