Multi-Channel Recordings

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Dave B, Jan 29, 2002.

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  1. Dave B

    Dave B Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Nokomis, FL
    This post is in response to several requests for mult-channel recordings (including Pet Sounds - Blaspheme!!)
    I have yet to hear a 4 channel, Quad, SQ-4 or DVD-A multi-channel recording that I felt improved the listening experience or my enjoyment of the performance. In most cases you get a sort of "center of the music" effect that is hardly realistic. While I can see the potential on a live LP to recreate some ambience by duplicating the delay and echo of the recording venue, this has seldom been done. When most of the classic LPs we enjoy were recorded they were done in the studio and one piece at a time. Mixing them to stereo imparts a sort of three dimensional sound stage that gives the effect of the performers being in front and slightly to the sides of the listener. This is similar to what most of us experience at a live performance. Unless you're John Stamos it's likely you have never experienced standing in between the Carl and Mike as the sing; so why try and recreate this false experience?

    In all fairness, I have only heard a small sampling of DVD-A surround and have not heard any SACD's. Although it's unlikely I'll be buying a multi-channel setup in the forseeable future, I always remain open minded about new technology, hell I even got a DVD player and a big ass color TV to watch Citizen Kane on.

    Seriously, I wonder if the other members of this forum can tell me about some multi-channel records they like and why they feel they are superior to the previous stereo or mono versions. I'm all ears.
     
  2. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    Specifically, I'd have to say it would be ELP's Brain Salad Surgery. It doesn't ruin the stereo experince, but it is highly recommneded as a 5-6 channel experience. It's absolutely wonderful and totally kills the normal Atlantic CD. Stereo HREZ isn't bad either!

    The Eagles Hotel Cali would be a close second, but I just play it in stereo mostly. It's different strokes for different folks.
     
  3. Dob

    Dob New Member

    Location:
    Detroit
    I believe that ELP would approve of multi channel sound. If I'm not mistaken, some of their live performances were in quad sound.

    I'd love to hear that version of Brain Salad Surgery, but I'm only set up for stereo right now.

    Sckott, does the stereo version on that DVD also kill the regular CD stereo?
     
  4. MikeT

    MikeT Prior Forum Cretin and Current Impatient Creep

    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    I like both stereo and MCH music. But I find one false assumption in your thoughts about surround sound. You assume that, by the quote above, if someone likes MCH music they feel the music is superior to stereo or even mono versions. I think, and this is also an assumption on my part, that people who say they love MCH music are not so much saying that the music is superior to stereo or mono, but they are reacting to the new and alternate experience surround gives them.

    I love the Grateful Dead (I guess you can say I am a DeadHead) and I love the two Dead DVD-Audio discs. I have listened to each many times in glorious 5.1 surround sound, and every time, I get tingles down my spine. But this does not mean I prefer them to the stereo version. I merely view any surround mix as an alternate experience, one that can be savoured next to the original stereo version. They are merely different, not better. And I feel this is how MCH music should be viewed - as an alternate experience.

    Too many "diehards" dismiss MCH because they do not feel it represents the music in a "real" fashion. But my question is - does it have to? No. Just as most people partake of things in their life to increase their enjoyment of life and add to the so-called "spice of life", I partake of MCH to help enrich my life. It is nothing more than an experience - as is everything in life I guess.

    I will continue to listen to stereo and MCH music on my DVD-Audio player and my MCH SACD player and do so in the same way some people go to the amusement park and get on the largest, longest and fastest rollercoaster. To experience something that in "reality" they wouldn't be able to experience any other way.
     
  5. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    Big, big time. Although I'd have to say, even the DD 5-6 channel is what I play quite often (or the PCM, depends on my moods).

    Some of the tracks on the ELP don't have a dedicated LFR channeling. "Still....." and "Benny The Bouncer" I remember don't have any LFR information in the DVDA. I've been demuxing it and taking the disc apart on the PC to "see what it's made of". Interesting how they seperate the channels and what information they put in it. Also what's interesting, it's one of the more "seperated" masterings to multichannel DVDA. More discreet info, but that's not what makes it stand out. It's just produced thoughtfully with mild attention-to-details. A very enjoyable listen.

    I'd say if you want to impress someone, this DVDA is high up. Next in line might be the DTS of the Moody Blues "Days Of Future Passed" on the Miller/MFSL partnership. Believe it or not, I believe Peter Mew engineered the multi sound. Don't knock it though, it's very, very good!
     
  6. MikeT

    MikeT Prior Forum Cretin and Current Impatient Creep

    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    If I am not mistaken, owning the ELP DVD-Audio disc myself, there is no dedicated stereo mix on that disc.

    So what Sckott is saying is better than the CD is an interpolated DVD-Audio downmix. Personally, I can't see how you might be able to consider that better than a discreet stereo mix on the CD, even if sonically the DVD-A might appear to sound better.
     
  7. I am far from a tech wizard, however...

    I recently bought a 5.1 system. All the speakers are Cabasse. My DVD player takes DVD-audio, as does my receiver. My conclusion after a few weeks of listening is this. The best sound I have heard is DVD-audio discs recorded very recently for 5.1 sound. The best of the lot - there are not all that many DVD-A discs out there that are newly recorded - is a disc of Bach Organ Works by Hans-Andre Stamm, recorded and issued by Pioneer Classics (PC-11544D) in 2001. The sound is glorious. The brochure states:

    "For the Bach Organ Works recording it was important to capture and reproduce in as natural a manner as possible the sound of the historical organ [the Baroque Organ in Waltershausen, Germany] in its acoustic context, the church. For the front channels, three Neumann TLM 50 (directional) microphones were used. For the surround channels, two Sennheiser MHK 20 (omni directional) microphones were used. The microphones were connected through the preamps of a modified Studer 961 mixing console to 24 Bit 96kHz converters and recorded onto a hard disc with a 32 Bit Floating Point Format using a Windows NT CPU. No compression or artificial reverb was added in post production to avoid changing the original sound."

    Insofar as reissues, I just don't know. The jury is out. I did just yesterday, however, listen to the "Just Judy" DVD that has been remastered in surround sound. I had already listened to it in 5.1, but when I switched to stereo, I found the sound much, much richer. So, as of now, I am not convinced remastering 3-track or 2-track recordings into six channels does justice to the recording. I may be wrong.

    LAWRENCE SCHULMAN:rolleyes:
     
  8. Dave B

    Dave B Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Nokomis, FL
    Thanks everyone. The one thing I like about this forum is that people exchange opinions without slamming each other like other boards I've read.

    Mike, I have heard that the Dead discs are very good. I am eager to hear them but unfortunetly there's no high-end stereo store within 50 miles of my home so I'll have to wait until I get to New York or Washington to get an audition.

    Sckott, I'm a big Moody Blues fan so I would also like to hear DOFP. Maybe once this format war ends I'll look deeper into this. Another problem I have is that unless they go to digital inputs, I have to get a new receiver or preamp. I'd rather go for a new turntable - I already have hundreds of LPs that will be improved by that purchase.
     
  9. MikeT

    MikeT Prior Forum Cretin and Current Impatient Creep

    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    You mean you don't have a Circuit City or Best Buy near you that can demo these discs for you in the way they were meant to be. :D

    I think you might be quite surprised by the Dead DVD-Audio discs if you do give a listen. You might also want to see if you can audiiton James Taylor "Hourglass" on MCH SACD - it is a very good album sonically in MCH.

    Dave, Now I am sure that if they put ZAPPA on SACD or DVD-Audio you would RUN to the nearest high-end store (even if it is a long-haul) to get that hi-rez player, huh? ;)
     
  10. Dave B

    Dave B Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Nokomis, FL
    AH - Inca Roads - with Ruth Underwood banging and clanging all around me! Or Hot Rats with Frank wandering around my family room squeezin' sparks from his Gibson. I can see the possibilities
     
  11. BradOlson

    BradOlson Country/Christian Music Maven

    The new CD reissue of John Wayne's "America, Why I Love Her" album from 1973 on MPI CD-8105 (originally relased on RCA Victor LSP-4828) claims to be surround stereo and I can there is stuff coming from each channel.
     
  12. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    I donno, Mike. The label, cover and disc says it has options for DVDA Advanced Resolution Stereo. It must have been a BAD TRIP??? AAAHHHHhhhhhh

    No, take a look at the DVDA. It truely has a dedicated stereo mix, there! Also has some neato clips (albeit short) from the Manticore film. Yep. Take a look. It's on the disc !

    I've demuxed the disc too. The VOB's in the AUDIO folder have 2 channel, and that's what I've heard, but not as often as I've chosen the Advanced Resolution 5-6 channel. The Dolby Digital doesn't sound bad either! What does your copy say? Maybe we can compare? Is there an odd version without a Advanced Resolution Stereo?
     
  13. bmoura

    bmoura Senior Member

    Location:
    Redwood City, CA
    I agree that the James Taylor "Hourglass" is one of the best in Multichannel SACD. That center channel vocal is crystal clear. Another one to check if you like R&B/Rap is the new "The Life" by Ginuwine. Very immersive surround mix and outstanding sound quality.

    As for Zappa, while we don't have Frank Zappa on SACD yet, there is an Opus 3 Multichannel/Stereo SACD that features his music (SACD 19424 - Omnibus Wind Ensemble - Music of Frank Zappa - Hybrid SACD from Opus 3). Zappa fans may want to check that one out. It's available from Elusive Disc , Music Direct and Acoustic Sounds .
     
  14. MikeT

    MikeT Prior Forum Cretin and Current Impatient Creep

    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    I don't know about the odd version without the Advanced Resolution Stereo mix, but the box and cover of my disc, which I bought when it was initially released around October 2000, does indicate Advanced Resolution Stereo. But when the menu comes up to select playback - it does not present me with the option for a dedicated stereo mix. I have the Technics DVD-A10.

    Anytime I have played this disc it will present me with a down-mix version for stereo. I wish there were a dedicated mix on this disc. I wonder if you might not have a newer pressing? Maybe Warner's "fixed" the disc since it's initial release and added the dedicated stereo mix.

    Sorry my DVD-audio disc of ELP just does not have the dedicated stereo mix. It does have the very poor clips from the Manticore film - but no dedicated stereo mix.

    How should I look at the VOBs on my disc to see if there is a 2-channel mix there? Should I put the disc in my DVD-ROM drive and then do an explore on all the directories?
     
  15. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    No, this disc definately is full of Macrovision, and after taking it apart, you have to demux it with VOBrator (Nice tool). It's not very easy to do. :(

    This is interesting, so you're saying the Advanced Stereo Mix is downmixed from 6 channel? (Or actually 5 depending on the song). Hmm.. I will have to check that out more carefully....!
     
  16. bmoura

    bmoura Senior Member

    Location:
    Redwood City, CA
    The "poor quality" of the video clip is probably due to the video size limits that are inherent in the DVD-A format.

    For real video, DVD Video is the better solution.
     
  17. MikeT

    MikeT Prior Forum Cretin and Current Impatient Creep

    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    Hi bmoura - nice to see you over here as well as AudioAsylum.

    Yes, I am quite aware that the poor quality of the video on the DVD-Audio disc is due to the limitations of the amount of disc space given over to DVD-Video.

    My whole argument, regarding this is, in the beginning when I first got my DVD-Audio player I was WOWed by the fact that I got visual extras. Now after 1 year and 4 months of owning the machine and having over 40+ DVD-Audio discs, I view the extras as a nuisance with very little value.

    In fact I don't even pay much attention to the video content on a DVD-audio disc. I might watch them once, but after that I don't even turn on my TV to listen to a DVD-Audio disc. I merely choose the MCH or stereo mix with the remote, and I make sure I have the Audio only button on so that the video circuit is turned off.
     
  18. bmoura

    bmoura Senior Member

    Location:
    Redwood City, CA
    As you probably know, SACD has the ability to carry video as well. But Sony & Philips chose to leave that "feature" untapped.

    I think they made the right move. If you can't have real, full motion video, why bother?
     
  19. Mart

    Mart New Member

    Actually, when I compared audiophile CDs versus DTS CDs of the same albums the increased clarity from reduced tarck micing is inherently superior, IMHO. The down-converted stereo imagine version is so unnaturally vague in comparison. Also, being surrounded by intruments, you're in the center of a jam session where the notes become the art of music. Outside of this sweetspot is an uncomfortably pale shadow of what is possible.
     
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